RE: Doubts? (Full Version)

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Simpleslave101 -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 10:57:43 AM)

I have no doubts that certain Dems will promise whatever they can to get in the Oval Office. I have no doubts that the Middle East is chomping at the bit for him to get in there. Just my overall impression.



kdsub -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 11:36:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I have read it numerous times, one must also read what that bill is claiming to institute from the UN.  Like I have said previously the title sounds great, it is the execution of what is in the bill and what it mandates (acceptance of certain treaties, giving the UN jurisdiction over small arms, and other such policies) the president and congress to do.

There is no doubt what the underlying mandates are designed to do, and solving poverty is just a small part of it.

Edited to add: I have made posts around here quoting the legislation with a direct link to it, and also quoted the portions of the UN policy that the bill says would be instituted.  Just a simple search away.


Thadius...does it amaze you as it does me that both of us reading exactly the same words come away with completely different views?

I think we are both reasonably intelligent and could quote different parts of the bill to support our contentions. I find it very hard to understand how you have reached your views….but I’m sure you think the same of me.

I guess emotion must play a role…Maybe the emotional element explains how responsible thinking people can go to war over words that don’t really support either side.

I think maybe we don’t even realize the emotional element is affecting our thinking…At least in your case..[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m9.gif[/image]

Peace Butch



MrRodgers -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 11:46:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

S2433 increases my doubts, but not enough to vote for McCain.

T


It is that bill, along with a pattern of stated positions (redistribution of wealth, universal voluntary service, etc...) that has cemented my feelings on the man. 

My doubts about the other candidates are based on their ability to get things done with a Congress dominated by Dems.

Redistribution of wealth...a very interesting expression isn't it. Just what does all that include and been vigorously pursued by BOTH parties as reflected foremost in the latest farm bill ? Let's take a look at the redistribution or what is also termed the transfer of wealth...
 
...Farm subsidies since I think the 1930's have been one of the greatest transfers of wealth in all history.

...every tariff including the last of note on lumber and steel (Bush II, 1st term) is a redistribution or transfer of wealth from consumers (taxpayers) to producers.

...every energy subsidy (tax break, the ethanol myth and a rich one that is) is a disasterous transfer of wealth and one purchased by the lobbies.

...as with food stamps...medicare, medicaid, prescription subsidy has been a relatively new transfers enacted that has been a transfer of wealth from young to the old and from everybody to the poor that will soon rival the farm program.

Not even counting transfers of wealth to wall street, bankers and certain favored industries. Just because it is T-Bills that are the collateral for the bail-out of Bear Stearns....doesn't mean it isn't a transfer of wealth that could have far better uses for the people funding the transfer.



Steponme73 -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 11:53:05 AM)

Do I have doubts?  Of course...I doubt that either one of the candidates can pull off what they say.  Obama says he is not going to raise taxes...but he will have to, to do all the government sponsored programs that he wants to do.  McCain, I don't think will have enough clout in congress to do what he wants to do.
There is way to much partisan politics for anyone to do good for the country.  Of course if congress would work together, lots could be accomplished, but that will not happen with Pelosi and Reid. 
There is not good solution.  Congressmen are there for themselves and not us. 



Vendaval -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 12:09:32 PM)

I have doubts about any politician of any size, shape or creed. Such are the perils of power.
 
I worry about the human costs to our leaders and their families and the potential for a political assassination during times of crisis.
 
I have major concerns about the future of the human race and the role of America on the world stage.
 
That is enough rambling for now...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
What I want to know is, does anyone have any concerns about their chosen candidates? It is easy to attack the other side. What about real doubts about your own side?



cjan -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 1:24:02 PM)

But, but, but...my guy IS great and your guy DOES suck !



kiwisub12 -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 2:36:28 PM)

I still think that anyone who wants to be a politician should be automaticall disqualified!  and we need to remember that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

and why exactly are we still subsidising tobacco farmers?   and exactly how much change can one person enact?



Vendaval -> RE: Doubts? (9/15/2008 4:52:11 PM)

Saying a guy likes to suck on these boards is not necessarily a bad thang. [8D]



Termyn8or -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 7:17:35 AM)

Both guys suck.

T



sophia37 -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 9:34:18 AM)

My guys great. Your guy sucks. Now if I can just figure out which guy I think is my guy. 



Vendaval -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 11:54:53 AM)

Remember when you vote that the positions change depending on the sucker, the suckee and those who would be sucked.



Marc2b -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 12:23:55 PM)


I have plenty of reasons for not wanting McCain – McCain/Feingold topping the list.

I have plenty of reasons for not wanting Palin – her belief in that Creationism/ Intelligent design nonsense for starters.

But there is no way I can stomach the thought of a socialist (and Obama is a socialist despite any denials) in the White House.

So yes, I admit it – I’m not voting for McCain but against Obama.  McCain is the lesser of two evils – it’s that simple.  Not that my vote will do much good in the true blue state of New York (but then, Reagan took New York twice, so you never truly know for sure).

Also, as I’ve mentioned before, the Left is always much more melodramatic – and therefore much more entertaining - when it looses than the Right (I’m talking about the rank and file here, not the professionals).  Sure, the Right will grouse for a few days but then go back to work (since most people on the Right have jobs).  The Left on the other hand… well let’s just say I didn’t see droves of Conservatives going to their psychiatrists when Clinton won re-election.  I didn’t see wild conspiracy theories be touted as common knowledge, and the Canadian Immigration web sight didn’t see a major upswing in hits.

In some ways I’m a little worried.  If McCain wins we just might see an upsurge of suicides.     



philosophy -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 1:33:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b


Obama is a socialist despite any denials


...only in the US would Obama be considered a socialist. A social democrat maybe, but a socialist? Nope.

Socialism, capitalism, fascism, monetarianism.....all these political labels have concrete meanings. They are not necessarily relative terms, for example just because someone is more left wing than another does not make them a socialist. Thatcher was slightly more left wing than Hitler, but i'm fairly sure she wasn't a socialist.

i doubt though that enough Americans can make this sort of distinction. i doubt Americans can forgo the idea that all labels are relative.



rulemylife -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 2:09:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Also, as I’ve mentioned before, the Left is always much more melodramatic – and therefore much more entertaining - when it looses than the Right (I’m talking about the rank and file here, not the professionals).  Sure, the Right will grouse for a few days but then go back to work (since most people on the Right have jobs).  The Left on the other hand… well let’s just say I didn’t see droves of Conservatives going to their psychiatrists when Clinton won re-election.  I didn’t see wild conspiracy theories be touted as common knowledge, and the Canadian Immigration web sight didn’t see a major upswing in hits.

In some ways I’m a little worried.  If McCain wins we just might see an upsurge of suicides.     



I guess you must have been on an extended vacation somewhere with no media access during the Clinton Administration.

All I remember were a series of unrelenting attacks by Republicans who were too pissed off to accept they lost the election.

Saddest part was the taxpayers paid for all the partisan foolishness.

And we paid more than in tax dollars with the focus on irrelevant nonsense distracting everyone from a focus on real issues. 



rulemylife -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 2:18:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy



i doubt though that enough Americans can make this sort of distinction. i doubt Americans can forgo the idea that all labels are relative.


No, we're generally not too bright but thank you for not being patronizing. 



rulemylife -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 2:37:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

We have had quite a few political threads recently. They all seem to degenerate into the same thing.
" My guy is great, Your guy sucks".

What I want to know is, does anyone have any concerns about their chosen candidates? It is easy to attack the other side. What about real doubts about your own side?

Jeff


I support Obama, but yes I have concerns.  His experience being one, after seeing Bush's lack of experience in foreign policy sink us into Iraq.

Based on policies alone, I favor Democrats.  I had seriously considered McCain, but his reversals on so many of his previous positions not only put him further from my position on issues but also made me wonder about his credibility.  His reversals seemed not to be based on his true beliefs but on political motivations about which position would get him the most votes.

His picking Palin made the final decision for me.  I truly could not, and still cannot believe, he would spent months making Obama's inexperience the center of his campaign then pick a running mate with the same experience issues and try to now claim that experience is overrated. 



philosophy -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 2:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy



i doubt though that enough Americans can make this sort of distinction. i doubt Americans can forgo the idea that all labels are relative.


No, we're generally not too bright but thank you for not being patronizing. 


...i believe you'll find that it's pronounced pay-tro-niz-ing

However that wasn't my intent. The thread is about doubts we may have. i've stated my doubt but i'd love to be proved wrong.



subrob1967 -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 3:09:23 PM)

I have serious doubts about McCain
McCain/Kennedy
McCain/Feingold
Amnesty for illegals
Border Security

But like Marc said, my concerns about McCain don't even come close to my concerns about Obama.

His choices of past mentors, friends & campaign workers alone scare the hell out of me.

BTW can someone explain to me how Obama, with his past associations, could possibly qualify for any type of security clearance? I know it's a bit off topic, but it is pertaining to the OP, and my concerns for Obama.



Marc2b -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 3:24:50 PM)

quote:

...only in the US would Obama be considered a socialist. A social democrat maybe, but a socialist? Nope.

Socialism, capitalism, fascism, monetarianism.....all these political labels have concrete meanings. They are not necessarily relative terms, for example just because someone is more left wing than another does not make them a socialist. Thatcher was slightly more left wing than Hitler, but i'm fairly sure she wasn't a socialist.

i doubt though that enough Americans can make this sort of distinction. i doubt Americans can forgo the idea that all labels are relative.


Change being the only constant in the universe, everything is relative. Grand philosophical vistas aside, however, the man hangs out with radical Leftists and wants to increase our taxes (don’t believe that top 5% bullshit for a second) to pay for a plethora of new government programs. In my book that makes him a socialist.



Marc2b -> RE: Doubts? (9/16/2008 3:40:41 PM)

quote:

I guess you must have been on an extended vacation somewhere with no media access during the Clinton Administration.


You have guessed wrong.

quote:

All I remember were a series of unrelenting attacks by Republicans who were too pissed off to accept they lost the election.


Go back and re-read my post. I stated that I was talking about the rank and file, not the professionals. Of course you heard a lot of squawking by Republicans – those who job it was to squawk. But I ask you, how many news stories did you see about average Americans seeking treatment for depression because Clinton won? How many news stories did you see about average Americans considering leaving the country because Clinton won. I’m sure if you Google enough you’ll find a few but nothing to the extent of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that occurred after Bush was re-elected.

quote:

Saddest part was the taxpayers paid for all the partisan foolishness.


Some of it, but not all of it.

quote:

And we paid more than in tax dollars with the focus on irrelevant nonsense distracting everyone from a focus on real issues.


It was only a distraction to those who wanted to be distracted.



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