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panic - 9/11/2008 9:16:32 PM

sistermargaret

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i've been following the boards for a few weeks now and i've seen submissives relating to their emotional panic when they've committed an error of some kind and suffered the consequences. i've felt that panic a few times myself. Way way WAY back when i was on-line only i was in a new chat room and 4 fellows ganged up on me and i was in such a panic i actually threw up. i also learned a long time ago that the greatest harm in BDSM is the psychological kind. Whips & floggers can bite, but one unkind word can cause a wound that never heals. Being old in the Lifestyle but new in the Ds side of it, i'm curious. What ... where does this hit us so hard that it enduces this kind of heart racing, palm sweating, wish i could just die reaction? Please know that i feel that those who are kind hearted and responsible understand the psychological impact they have on submissives, and i'm not making accusations or crying the blues. i'm a happy, well cared for subbie and it takes a LOT to make me panic now. i am curious, tho. Does that panic just effect the newbie or is it a subbie thing? Is it the absolute surrender that leaves us that vulnerable? i open the floor to those wiser than i.
sm

All it takes is absolute surrender

Post #: 1

RE: panic - 9/11/2008 10:11:08 PM

tia111

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Joined: 9/9/2008
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While i do not believe that i am wiser than yourself, i will throw my card on the table and express where my panic comes from.
When there is something that i have done that has disappointed someone that is important to me, be it my mother, my family, my best friend or a mate, i tend to beat the heck out of myself far more than anyone else can. Therefore, i believe that the panic stems from the knowledge of how bad i am going to feel about myself for it. Just my opinion.

_____________________________

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. ~Henry Ford

(in reply to sistermargaret)

Post #: 2

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 5:46:53 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
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I think it has to do not only with being new, but being new to a relationship. I've been with my Master for 9 months, it's been a great journey, but only yesterday did it finally hit me that he's not going to simply get bored with me and walk away. Though my trust has grown with him all of this time, the real trust that was lacking was in myself as being desirable enough - either physically, mentally, or through my service - to keep someone's attention. When you are not secure with yourself it is much easier to panic over any discretion - whether intentional or not.

This can happen all over again when entering into a new relationship. I know Doms that have felt it, too - it isn't just a sub thing. It is a person thing - wanting to be a good partner. We are born with an instinct and a craving to be with others. We can become very afraid if it looks like something will endanger that.

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RE: panic - 9/12/2008 5:55:20 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
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I'll go one step further, it doesnt even have to center around being new. More often than not, that panic gets worse when you are very attached to someone and you believe that you have done wrong by them for whatever reason. It is that "oh hell how do I fix this" moment when you realize that your position might not be a gaurantee and what you have done might have major repercussions. It does happen on both sides of the whip, and it happens with vanilla family and friends as well as D/s types. I believe that submissive personalities might feel it more strongly than dominant types, but I do not know a single person who has not gone through that a few times in their lives.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to chamberqueen)

Post #: 4

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 6:00:43 AM

Dnomyar

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If you feel a panic attack comming on ask yourself why should you panic. What is it going to accomplish if you panic. You have the power to over rule your emotions. Use it.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 5

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 6:31:45 AM

michelleryder

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Joined: 5/18/2007
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Easier said than done that Dnomyar. I'm a panicker too and I'm still mithering on about things and feeling guilt ridden long after Masters forgotten about them. I think it's just a part of who and what we are.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 6

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 6:32:31 AM

sfdrew

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Joined: 6/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

If you feel a panic attack comming on ask yourself why should you panic. What is it going to accomplish if you panic. You have the power to over rule your emotions. Use it.

While that is a nice idea, it is absurdly unrealistic. We do not, in fact, have control over our emotions and to boil down the entire range of human experience (of which I feel emotion to be a foundation) to such a simplistic antidote as an answer to a serious and nuanced question about the nature of fear in submissives is almost insulting.

If we did truly have control over our emotions then nobody would kill themselves, or cry at funerals, or cry at child birth (out of joy). The best we can hope to do is to bottle them up so the rest of the world doesn't have to see it, but it doesn't go away and it still affects us.

In response to the original question I agree with all the comments but I have an additional comment on this point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I believe that submissive personalities might feel it more strongly than dominant types...

I think this is not only true but also that it stems from the nature of a submissive. We (being a submissive myself) spend months and years searching for somebody to serve and please. When we do finally find that person, their approval can mean everything to us, esp considering how hard we push ourselves to be perfect for them even if they don't expect as much. When we screw up it hurts us deeply because we feel like we are betraying the trust they have put in is.

Submission is a pact between two people and even though it is unrealistic for us to expect perfection out of ourselves we tend to do it anyways. We are offering ourselves to another person and anything which violates that pact and takes control back away from the Dominant can cause us to feel as though we are not living up to our obligations. It goes much deeper than just than just hurting a loved one (not to make lightly of that emotion either), but rarely to we feel bound to our family and friends in such a contractual way.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 7

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 6:40:22 AM

Dnomyar

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sfdrew you can get control of your emotions. You can choose to do something or not do something. Your talking about insecurities. You have them because you choose not to face them. In situations you are giving choice's. Panic or do something about it.

(in reply to sfdrew)

Post #: 8

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 6:46:55 AM

sfdrew

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Joined: 6/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

sfdrew you can get control of your emotions. You can choose to do something or not do something. Your talking about insecurities. You have them because you choose not to face them. In situations you are giving choice's. Panic or do something about it.

While it is possible to train yourself to not panic in certain situations, it is not as easy as a simple choice and it takes extensive training and a form or 'mental muscle memory'. Through my experiences in the army and overseas I have learned to control my panic in situations of physical danger, but that was a long process of what could only be called brainwashing and acclimatization.

People do not chose to be in fear or chose to panic. They are natural responses that are designed to protect us. I suppose if somebody who was not mentally sound put a gun in your mouth that you would be able to control your emotions and fear? Even with all my training I can tell that I would not be able to.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 9

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:02:17 AM

mistoferin

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I have never felt this....panic. Yes, I have fallen short and disappointed people that I've cared about...but it's never caused a panic reaction in me. As for online, I don't think anyone has ever caused any kind of intense emotion in me in that medium.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sistermargaret)

Post #: 10

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:05:14 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfdrew
People do not chose to be in fear or chose to panic. They are natural responses that are designed to protect us. I suppose if somebody who was not mentally sound put a gun in your mouth that you would be able to control your emotions and fear? Even with all my training I can tell that I would not be able to.

You are talking about life and death situations involving strangers who have not developed trust. I can't imagine panicking because I burn my Dom's toast. Really different situations.....

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sfdrew)

Post #: 11

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:05:35 AM

simpleplan2

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I haven't either, mist. I've felt somewhat badly that I disappointed whomever or couldn't do something, but if I've given it my best effort, I just figure it's beyond my control.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 12

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:09:54 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
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To address what Drew has said... I find myself panicky LESS in life and death situations (of which I have had several) than when I risk disappointing someone I love. I am not talking about heart stopping panic that makes me unable to think much less function. I am, however, talking about palm sweating, stomach churning panic over a situation. Why... thats easy. I caused it.
I only panic when I realize that I caused the problem and then I have to figure out not only how to solve it but how to undo the damage it might have caused. When I had a gun held at me, I didnt panic because I knew I could solve it but I could not have avoided it. My panic starts when I realize that I could have easily avoided the issues that were going to be causeing all srts of problems with a it more forethought, or a little more tact.
Just how I see things.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to simpleplan2)

Post #: 13

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:12:44 AM

sfdrew

Posts: 124
Joined: 6/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfdrew
People do not chose to be in fear or chose to panic. They are natural responses that are designed to protect us. I suppose if somebody who was not mentally sound put a gun in your mouth that you would be able to control your emotions and fear? Even with all my training I can tell that I would not be able to.

You are talking about life and death situations involving strangers who have not developed trust. I can't imagine panicking because I burn my Dom's toast. Really different situations.....

That is true, but we are still talking about primal emotions. I don't see how panic in one situation is different than in another. The panic could be to a stronger or weaker degree but it is the same emotional reaction. People really do feel panic when they are in a submissive position and the question was asked why, not if.

Just because you haven't personally experienced it is no reason to assume it is somehow a confusion or a lesser experience than other forms of panic.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 14

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:20:08 AM

mistoferin

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Panic seems like such a strong word. Apprehensive maybe. Disappointed, sad, a tad angry at oneself...yeah, those I can understand very well. Panic though? No, I can't imagine it. I have felt panic before...but it was when I thought I was going to die right that second...or when I thought one of my kids was in imminent danger.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to sfdrew)

Post #: 15

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 7:25:23 AM

sistermargaret

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Joined: 8/8/2008
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It goes much deeper than just hurting a loved one (not to make lightly of that emotion either), but rarely to we feel bound to our family and friends in such a contractual way.

Yes, that's what i mean. It seems so very deep, like in the very core of our being. i've been upset, scared, horrified, truely sorry about things i've done but nothing has ever effected me as deeply as that panic i've felt if He doesn't call or if He seems put off. Its not Him .. maybe He's not even aware that i'm in a tizzy. But, then again, He probably does :)
Dnomyar, that is exactly the same advice i'd give anyone else if i'd never experienced this, and being proactive and pragmatic is my usualy stance, so from a mental aspect i see where You are coming from. But matters of the heart are a whole other ball game.

but only yesterday did it finally hit me that he's not going to simply get bored with me and walk away.

That hits the nail squarely, too. i am continually amazed that He accepts me. My mind says, well, hell yes He does, most people do and goodness knows i've attracted my fair share of submissive suiters, but to attract someone so fine who wants to make ME happy, keep ME happy, do all that work for ME makes my heart flutter and race. Perhaps it is all about insecurities and self worth.

I believe that submissive personalities might feel it more strongly than dominant types

Having always been a Switch, which i know was a position of self protection, and now allowing this man, this Dominant to gently pull me off that aloof fence and make me see myself for who i truely am ... that self awareness is pretty heady stuff, and it does cause me much emotional turmoil. Coming to terms with just how submissive i really am has been hard on me. To lower those strong high walls and let Him protect me instead. To allow Him that control. Amazing.
Its good to know that perhaps Dominants feel it too. i don't think i could ever cope if i was only doing this on-line. No wonder we see the anguished posts here. Thanks for all the good insights.
sm

All it takes is absolute surrender

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 16

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 8:25:12 AM

sistermargaret

Posts: 101
Joined: 8/8/2008
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I am not talking about heart stopping panic that makes me unable to think much less function. I am, however, talking about palm sweating, stomach churning panic over a situation.

Yep, that's what i'm talking about too. Working in the ICU, NICU and ER cause the kind of panic your talking about sfdrew, and yes, i mastered that long long ago. i'll also agree that the very word 'panic' is subjective to one's culture/age/depth and type of relationship, etc. One could say i 'panic' when i'm more than 10 feet off the ground, too, but that's also different.
sm

All it takes is absolute surrender

(in reply to sistermargaret)

Post #: 17

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 9:49:02 AM

Missokyst

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Joined: 9/9/2006
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I have rarely felt panic in regards to a romantic relationship. I guess because I never allow myself become attached until there is security of being an "US", that I don't have that confusion when a misstep is made. I don't believe it is a submissive trait to feel that panic, or even a new to this stuff, trait. I think it can happen to anyone who gives it all too soon. I have met more than a few men, dominants, and nillas who have the panic reaction when they think they did something wrong.

That said, I do get panic attacks. The real, blood pressure rising, short breath, tight chest, head swimming type of panic that makes it a struggle to walk out my door and do life. Situations can do that to me. People who mean nothing to me but irritation can do that to me. Not knowing what I will run into on the outside can do that to me. I think knowing what panic really feels like, has made the rest of my life cake. No new mistake can make me feel stricken. Life moves on.
Kyst

(in reply to sistermargaret)

Post #: 18

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 9:53:51 AM

badlilthang

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Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

sfdrew you can get control of your emotions. You can choose to do something or not do something. Your talking about insecurities. You have them because you choose not to face them. In situations you are giving choice's. Panic or do something about it.

i beg to differ. In certain situations our instincts take over - and every learned little thing is gone - out - vanished..take me, for instance. Certain things gets out my claustrophobia to a place way beyond control. i was taking a CT-scan....well - i was supposed to take one - but the moment i walked into the room, seeing that machine - my heartrate went UP. Lady gave me a panic button attached to my hand with a elastic band and told me to squeeze it if it got too scary...i thought it would be too stupid not to try, so i laid down - holding the button faitfully in my hand...determind to try. Machine started - i cried in total panic - and lifted both arms up - trying to stop the tray from moving (duh)....button? which button???where was my common sense? where was my learned responses? Somewhere far away from my brain...*L*...so - no - not always possible to control ones emotions....s...

< Message edited by badlilthang -- 9/12/2008 9:54:37 AM >

_____________________________

.Forgiveness is the fragrance a flower leaves in the air after being crushed underfoot.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 19

RE: panic - 9/12/2008 11:26:15 AM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sistermargaret
i am curious, tho. Does that panic just effect the newbie or is it a subbie thing? Is it the absolute surrender that leaves us that vulnerable? i open the floor to those wiser than i.
sm

All it takes is absolute surrender

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable.
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability" I penned that quote.I am gonna speak from several perspectives ~
I DO suffer from panic attacks, social anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder and if you goggle panic ...there are plenty of physiological and psychological symptoms worthy of reading.
My personality happens to be the submissive type from the day I can remember. Fear, I think, is the underlying initiative of all panic.Panic is not "a subbie thing" it is a human thing. Absolute surrender does not lead to vulnerability, it should, I would think lead to peace, unsurpassing peace if there is trust and openness in that surrender.Some give absolute surrender (what I refer to to as internal enslavement)far to easy. I did this once and learned my lesson.Vulnerability can leave us susceptible, assailable and liable to be succumbed. I think this is where the newbie thing and online stuff happens when conversing with those who identify in any form of this lifestyle. Emotional vulnerability can serve as a physiological reaction to those who have some sort of panic disorder, mild to severe. Much found on goggle as well. We are vulnerable because we open ourselves to it.Surrendering our submission leaves us open to be vulnerable, thus it is a gift to the right person or situation.Thus no panic. There is no fear in the known and trusted. Hope this makes sense. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Edited to add: when I am going through panic I try to figure out the fear behind it and I can allow the fear to control me or not.

< Message edited by RealSub58 -- 9/12/2008 11:29:15 AM >

(in reply to sistermargaret)

Post #: 20

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