Operation Desert Storm? (Full Version)

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knees2you -> Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 10:40:26 AM)

Operation desert Storm?
 
When Bush's daddy was in office,
He did not take out Saddam when he had the chance.
 
I admit that Clinton didn't go after him either.
 
Look how many lives where lost between now and then!
 
Then like father like son bush junior says I will do it.
 
Even though it was technically Afganistan that attacked us.
 
The Palisteniens where even burning the american flag for "God "sakes.
 
I'm not saying Obama/Biden will be any better,
But anything but what we've had will be better
then nothing at all.
 
Kness2you[sm=cactus.gif]




smilezz -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 10:49:26 AM)

Ohhhh I don't know. I think NOTHING may be better.

While I realize I am a small person in the whole scape of things.........who here has read the Bill of Rights lately? the US Constitution lately? welllllll, I have, as a matter of fact, I have been reading them every single day so that I can hopefully one day have it ALL in memory.

This right here...brings tears to my eyes.

~We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE A NEW GOVERNMENT, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.~

I am not a very Political person, and I certainly can not argue/debate Politics......but sometimes it's worth taking a step back and be amazed at our Country.....regardless of how each and every one of use believe or vote.

Gaaddzzz....I was not going to get into this......

Happy Thursday!!

-smilezz-






sub4hire -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 12:29:00 PM)

Hey Smilezz..good to see you.

When did Afghanistan attack us?  Did I miss an entire attack somewhere?

You do realize if they kept records someone somewhere is probably burning the American flag every moment of every day?

We're not exactly liked by most.





meatcleaver -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 12:38:08 PM)

Afghanistan had the al qaeda terrorist training camps and gave Bin Laden sanctuary. Maybe technically Afghanistan didn't attack the US or its embassies but it enabled the attack to take place. Saddam never attacked the US which is why every country under the sun realizes it needs nukes to protect itself from the US.




bipolarber -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 12:58:26 PM)

smilez,

Nice post, and exactly my position as well. Only, sometimes, I wish the founders had said it was our DUTY to abolish administrations that threaten our freedoms. Not just that we have the right to. As I said in another post, the Constitutional abuses and the removal of hebeas corpus from the Constitution is my primary complaint against Bush, and the republicans.

Have you gotten your:

"McCain/Palin '08 - The Handmaid's Tale '09?" bumper sticker yet?




Raechard -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 1:10:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
You do realize if they kept records someone somewhere is probably burning the American flag every moment of every day?


Good for your flag exports, I'd say. Mind you they probably be made in China.




FRSguy -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 1:15:16 PM)

Although I agree that a lot of lives were lost between both wars if I remember corectly the reason why our troops were stopped durring desert storm was because the country of Iraq the UN and the US had reached an agreement that Iraq had 10 years to comply to.  If memory serves they did not fullfill the treaty obligations within the time frame and refused to do so therby breaking the agreement with the U.S and the U.N. If I remember they had a lot of political babbel going on at the time that was crap but the underlining issue was wether or not a nation could be allowed to "break treaty" and have no backlash from it.  The U.N. said yes and the U.S. said no it wasnt exceptable and under the treaty agreement the U.S. was automatically at war with Iraq. All the stuff about U.N. inspections was crap because they were still in violation of the treaty even with nothing being found. I believe Clinton also ordered several strikes against Iraq durring his presidency.  But, that is just memory... didnt look anything up.




Archer -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 1:39:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

Ohhhh I don't know. I think NOTHING may be better.

While I realize I am a small person in the whole scape of things.........who here has read the Bill of Rights lately? the US Constitution lately? welllllll, I have, as a matter of fact, I have been reading them every single day so that I can hopefully one day have it ALL in memory.

This right here...brings tears to my eyes.

~We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, AND TO INSTITUTE A NEW GOVERNMENT, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.~

I am not a very Political person, and I certainly can not argue/debate Politics......but sometimes it's worth taking a step back and be amazed at our Country.....regardless of how each and every one of use believe or vote.

Gaaddzzz....I was not going to get into this......

Happy Thursday!!

-smilezz-





Uhhh smilezz,  check the top of the page again of that document you quoted.
I believe you will find it is niether the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, but rather that it is the Declaration of Independance.

The Constitution begins We the People of the United states of America In order to form a more perfect union, establish justice and promote domestic traquility, provide for the common defense, support the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our prosperity do ordain and establish this constitution of the united States of America.

The Bill of Rights is the First 10 Ammendments.




HopeLost -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 1:40:52 PM)

 one of the reasons bush senior decided to leave iraq was he listened to his military commanders. they knew this mess would ensue if we took baghdad.
and sure the training camp for terrorists may have been in afghanistan but the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi. our "friends" in the middle east.




Archer -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 1:48:02 PM)

As to why Desert Storm ended before ousting Saddam, The Desert Storm coallition was formed under the UN for the purpose of removing raqi troops from Kuwait. That goal had been achieved. The lawyers thought hey now all we had "permission" to do was remove them to actually take over Iraq would be overreaching the authorized scope of the UN Resolution. It was a legal/ lawyers council that Bush Sr figured was right.

So when the cease fire was signed Saddam was allowed to stay in power. That cease fire agreement specified that Saddam had 30 days to comply with the WMD provisions. To destroy and give a complete accounting of the destruction. so Saddam Violated the cease fire agreement on day 31 every day after that was grace granted to him.
The Offcial Policy Making the goal of the US was to remove and replace Saddam was written by none other than Bill (Slick Willie) Clinton.






sub4hire -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 2:42:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Afghanistan had the al qaeda terrorist training camps and gave Bin Laden sanctuary. Maybe technically Afghanistan didn't attack the US or its embassies but it enabled the attack to take place. Saddam never attacked the US which is why every country under the sun realizes it needs nukes to protect itself from the US.


That is a far cry from Afghanistan attacking us.  We've got our own home bread terrorists here.  Does that mean American is attacking America?






Raechard -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 2:46:46 PM)

Makes you laugh when you consider the way they attacked didn't really require any kind of military training. I doubt they learnt how to fly planes in Afghanistan.




sub4hire -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 2:50:07 PM)

I believe we taught them that in Florida or somewhere like that.

Guess we're breeding our own after all, if we go by this logic.





smilezz -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 3:08:29 PM)

quote:

Uhhh smilezz,  check the top of the page again of that document you quoted.
I believe you will find it is niether the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, but rather that it is the Declaration of Independance.

The Constitution begins We the People of the United states of America In order to form a more perfect union, establish justice and promote domestic traquility, provide for the common defense, support the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our prosperity do ordain and establish this constitution of the united States of America.

The Bill of Rights is the First 10 Ammendments.



Archer,

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I will be the first one to admit that in school I was the one who never listened, and truth be told, got involved with the wrong crowd of people and quit in my 10th year. I never bothered to learn or read any of these. I decided to look these up online and read for myself....I get confused......but!,there is always a begining point....ehhh, and so I am learning from my mistake of typing to fast, being passionate about something that finally means something to me.

Thank you!

-smilezz-





slaveboyforyou -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 3:41:43 PM)

quote:

Saddam never attacked the US which is why every country under the sun realizes it needs nukes to protect itself from the US.


I guess you don't consider attempting to assassinate a former U.S. President to be an attack on the U.S., but it is.  I also consider 10+ years of firing at U.S. aircraft legally enforcing a treaty to also be an attack.  The world is better off without Saddam Hussein and his psychopathic sons in it. 




Thadius -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 3:41:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

As to why Desert Storm ended before ousting Saddam, The Desert Storm coallition was formed under the UN for the purpose of removing raqi troops from Kuwait. That goal had been achieved. The lawyers thought hey now all we had "permission" to do was remove them to actually take over Iraq would be overreaching the authorized scope of the UN Resolution. It was a legal/ lawyers council that Bush Sr figured was right.

So when the cease fire was signed Saddam was allowed to stay in power. That cease fire agreement specified that Saddam had 30 days to comply with the WMD provisions. To destroy and give a complete accounting of the destruction. so Saddam Violated the cease fire agreement on day 31 every day after that was grace granted to him.
The Offcial Policy Making the goal of the US was to remove and replace Saddam was written by none other than Bill (Slick Willie) Clinton.





The ceasefire also required Iraq to pay for damages, release political and military prisoners, to abide by a no fly zone, not develope certain rocket technology, and a bunch of other things that were not complied with.  Which can be witnessed by the numerous resolutions by the UN throughout the '90s and all the way up to and including the start of the current war.  It became public law in '98 that regime change was the official policy of the US.




BitaTruble -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 4:01:49 PM)

Smilezz ..

Okay, Archer already pointed out that was from the Dec of Indep, but if you want a document to read, try the Patriot Act (the latest copy because many of the ammendments have already been struck down as being  .. unconstitutional.)

I've read the whole damn thing .. and I mean every ammendment, strike through, cross referenced word of it. I'm in the process of reading the latest version again.

I'm a masochist that way. [8D] 

After you read the Patriot Act.. go back and then reread the Constitution.. because that's the document that the PA actually spits on .. you'll probably read it in a whole new light .. and let me tell you, it pisses me off in more ways than one that this piece of garbage was signed by our representatives on our behalf. Such clever little boys and girls who included so much of what we already had in this piece of legislation so as to hide all the juicy little tidbits in a document so large it's not physically possible for anyone to have read the first copy after 9/11 before it was presented for signing. I mean, come on .. here Congress is giving this document (3000+ pages of cross-referenced material.. however, the cross-referencing wasn't given to them so it all had to be looked up -- yeah.. riiiiiiiight) and told they have 5 hours to review it before it would be put up for vote.

One guy.. ONE GUY stood up and said.. ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS??

The esteemed Senator, Russ Feingold, from Wisconsin. You go, Russ. If you had run for President, this single act would have given you my vote. My favorite quote from this piece came from Feingold quoting John Curran - "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.”


The Patriot Act (do ya'll know that's an acronym?) .. how much time do you think was spent trying to find words to fit those letters?

"Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism." Great.. except for the little signatures to sign off on that bill which provides for the discretion of the President to circumvent the constitution should he deem it necessary. No explanations whatsoever on what constitutes 'necessary'.  The Patriot Act.. great for the President .. BAD for citizens.

::sighs:: Where is Ben Franklin when we need him.. the greatest President who never was.

McCain and Obama BOTH voted to reauthorize (albeit a slightly less odiferous version) but it still steps all over my beloved Constitution. Congressional response to that concern? Eh, put it all in there and whatever is in there that violates the constitution can be addressed when those bridges are crossed.

WTF??





smilezz -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 4:13:16 PM)

Celeste!

Thank you! I actually printed this whole Thread out and will be researching and reading even more tonight! I'm ashamed at times that it has taken me so many years to feel the passion that I do right now about this. The joy of it is......I have not given up on learning, and oh the things I am learning!

Thank you Thank you!

-smilezz-






knees2you -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/4/2008 11:00:55 PM)

quote:

Although I agree that a lot of lives were lost between both wars if I remember corectly the reason why our troops were stopped durring desert storm was because the country of Iraq the UN and the US had reached an agreement that Iraq had 10 years to comply to.  If memory serves they did not fullfill the treaty obligations within the time frame and refused to do so therby breaking the agreement with the U.S and the U.N. If I remember they had a lot of political babbel going on at the time that was crap but the underlining issue was wether or not a nation could be allowed to "break treaty" and have no backlash from it.  The U.N. said yes and the U.S. said no it wasnt exceptable and under the treaty agreement the U.S. was automatically at war with Iraq. All the stuff about U.N. inspections was crap because they were still in violation of the treaty even with nothing being found. I believe Clinton also ordered several strikes against Iraq durring his presidency.  But, that is just memory... didnt look anything up.


They did have sadaam in their sites right?
During that time they knew they could have wacked him.[sm=anger.gif]
 
Always, knees2you[sm=cactus.gif]




meatcleaver -> RE: Operation Desert Storm? (9/5/2008 1:49:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Saddam never attacked the US which is why every country under the sun realizes it needs nukes to protect itself from the US.


I guess you don't consider attempting to assassinate a former U.S. President to be an attack on the U.S., but it is.  I also consider 10+ years of firing at U.S. aircraft legally enforcing a treaty to also be an attack.  The world is better off without Saddam Hussein and his psychopathic sons in it. 


How many leaders have the US tried to assassinate or gave material help to assassinate? The US only reaped what it sowed.

I have to chuckle to myself when rightwingers start talking about the legal niceities af international law because the US ignores such niceities when such legal niceities gets in the way of its foreign policies. And just to put a fly in your ointment, the NO-FLY ZONES were....wait for it.......ILLEGAL! 

Since we are talking of legal niceities, under international law Iraq had a legitimate claim to Kuwait and wanted to test its claim in the international arenas but was denied. Kuwait, historically the 19th province of the Ottoman region that formed Iraq was illegitimately given independence by Britian because it was oil rich and so allowed Britain to control a weak oil rich state.

Most of the trouble in the middle east is due to western domination, interference and its support for hated regimes that subjugate their own people just so it can access oil. Add into the equation the west turning a blind eye to Israeli state terrorism and Israeli possession of nuclear arms and it becomes easy to see why the west is hypocritical and hated throughout the middle east by just about everyone but the corrupt regimes it supports. 




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