Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 5:58:13 PM)

 
I'm finally after a lot of procrastination making an attempt to wade through Sigmund Freud's 'a case of hysteria, three essays on on sexuality and other works.' I'm part way through 'a case of hysteris' and have come across a concept which has really sparked my interest.


I have always struggled with my thinking that in some way my past abusive relationships have to be / may be in some way linked to my lifestyle now (bdsm). I have never managed to analyse it in any other way though than one which has always seemed unhealthy. I think however that i may have just found found an analysis that could fit me, possibly others. It shows that my recurrent abusive relationships were not healthy but that there was a healthy light at the end of the tunnel.


A litle background for those who have not read Freuds paper, is that he was attempting to treat a 19 year old single female showing symptoms of hysteria.
Hysteria (psychoanalysis). A psychoneurotic disorder characterised by violent,emotional outbreaks, disturbances of sensory and motor functions, and various abnormal affects due to autosuggestion.
(dictionary.com)


As is usually the case with Freud (so i hear) he makes quite a few links between the girl's 'illness' and acts / thoughts of a sexual nature. He claims where there is no sexual knowledge there can be no hysteria. I do not personally believe that hysteria in a psychological sense cannot exist without sexual connotations. For the purpose of looking at myself though and the topic in hand i choose to acknowledge sexuality may be a part of it. Bdsm and my past abuse certainly has / does contain thoughts / acts of a sexual nature for me. I do however accept this is not the same for everyone.


Freud puts many of his sexual theories to the girl and explains why for those who would be outraged at his conduct. What follows is what sparked my interest.


'With the exercise of a little caution all that is done is to translate into conscious ideas what was already known in the unconscious; and, after all, the whole effectiveness of the treatment is based upon our knowledge the affect attached to an unconscious idea operates more strongly and, since it cannot be inhibited, more injurously than the affect attached to a conscious one.'


So and please bear with me here....... my thoughts based on what i've read so far are hysteria manifests from a hidden unconscious idea in a person and becomes a psychological illness which alters our behaviour / thoughts / feelings.
If this is so could it possibly also then be linked to those of us who have suffered physical /mental / sexual abuse from partners in the past?


Before discovering bdsm is it possible the unconscious need for control / pain etc manifested into a form of hysteria in which the 'illness' displayed itself by attracting / seeking violent partners? This is of course assuming that bdsm has not been discovered by the abused person yet.


To requote Freud ' the affect attached to an unconscious idea operates more strongly and since it cannot be inhibited, more injurously than the affect attached to a conscious one'.


So in my case and maybe others it was possible i had unconscious thoughts/ ideas about bdsm before i discovered it and this manifested into abusive relationships. My unconscious thoughts / ideas could not be inhibited or played out in a safe way, leading me to find the pain / control i desired subconsciously in an uncontrolled dangerous environment.
In finding bdsm my unconscious ideas /thoughts became conscious ones and i was then able to live them in a safe and controlled environment, relatively speaking.


Just some thoughts.




DesFIP -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 6:45:38 PM)

I always thought one of the leading causes of Victorian hysteria was tightlacing. Can't breathe deeply, get upset for whatever reason, and panic and hyperventilation sets in, culminating in hysterics.

Putting Freudian thought aside, as most modern psychoanalysts do, certainly it is plausible to suppose that someone hard wired for rough sex, someone whose pain and pleasure centers are confused, would seek out relationships where their pain needs would be met. Since sex ed in school does not usually explain about s & m, then someone with these needs, who doesn't understand what the needs are, would be likely to seek to sate them with a bad choice in partners. Nonconsensual abuse instead of negotiated, in other words.

Better bad breath than no breath at all, as the line goes.



thetammyjo -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 6:55:05 PM)

One should also be aware that much of Freud's writing was seriously limited by those around him. His original works is rather clear in stating that what we would call "childhood sexual abuse" was wide spread but his "society" rejected his observations so he changed a lot of what happened into "fantasy". I've always thought this sadly allowed several more generations of abuse to continue and created doubts about people's reports of both abuse and rape.

Freud was, as we all are, products of our times, limited by those around us. That he studied this issues at all was ground breaking.

Hysteria originally was a Greek concept related to the idea of the uterus being being separate from the rest of the body and moving around. The "cure" was lots of sex and orgasms.



IvyMorgan -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 6:56:59 PM)

My last psych visit, we talked about Freud, Anna O, and hysteria.

I've long presented with (now chronic) severe physical symptoms as well as some fun mental health issues.  And he sugested hysteria would, in fact, explain all of them (except the wacky hormones).

In my case, it would be a combination of not knowing what to do with my early sexual knowledge (which is quite a nice way of writing, getting abused), not feeling comfortable expressing my sexuality/sexual identity/thinking of myself as a sexual being whilst growing up (cos I was abused early, cos I was abused later, cos I was religious, cos my parents are traditional (dad does not tolerate use of the word breast, even when prefixed with the word chicken), cos being gay is way up there in the list of uber sins, cos no one in my life accepted that it was okay to not be straight, cos who do you go and tell when at 14 you want to be tied up and this smacks of the abuse you already suffered, etc), and generally leading an "interesting" sex life since I decided, "ah heck, fuck it" and stopped being quite so conservative and repressed (guys, girls, groups, kink, strangers, friends, partners, fuckbuddies, swingers, kinksters, all that BDSM mallarky, etc).  These factors combined to leave me the messed up girl I am today.  I like this theory.  But it doesn't explain why I'm kinky, or bi, or poly.  It doesn't explain my sexuality, just why my dysfunctional relationship with it has screwed me up.

If that made no sense... it would be because I am tired and resisting all thoughts of going to sleep.



missturbation -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 7:07:20 PM)

quote:

Since sex ed in school does not usually explain about s & m, then someone with these needs, who doesn't understand what the needs are, would be likely to seek to sate them with a bad choice in partners. Nonconsensual abuse instead of negotiated, in other words.

Better bad breath than no breath at all, as the line goes.

It would have still been unconscious thought in me though unless of course given sex ed lessons which included bdsm.
It honestly didn't feel like better bad breath than no breath at all at the time. Although saying that i did repeatedly go back for more so maybe that was subconscious too.
 
quote:

Freud was, as we all are, products of our times, limited by those around us. That he studied this issues at all was ground breaking.

Hysteria originally was a Greek concept related to the idea of the uterus being being separate from the rest of the body and moving around. The "cure" was lots of sex and orgasms.

I only gave freud as the source etc to give a bit of background as to how i had come about in this thinking. It was never meant to be about him and his merits or lack of per se.
It was the unconscious / conscious ideas /thoughts that sparked my theory.
 
quote:

I like this theory.  But it doesn't explain why I'm kinky, or bi, or poly.  It doesn't explain my sexuality, just why my dysfunctional relationship with it has screwed me up.

Nope but i'm sure if i carry on reading until i get to the essays on sexuality there will be something in there lol. However in general i'm guessing that Freud may not be the most reliable / correct psychologist to look to. [:D]







WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 8:44:29 PM)

I will refrain from commenting specifically upon Freud here.  I will however make some broadsweeping generalizations in terms of me and BDSM.

Nobody become shocked, but I had some early childhood abuse around the time I was 4-5 years old.  I can say this was a major contributing factor, but not the only factor.  This abuse was not limited to sexual abuse, it was also mental and physical in other forms.  I was abused by force literally.

Around the time I was 6-7 years old, I was somewhat influenced by a girl of my own age, that was being sexually mostlested.  Needless to say, her interactions with me shaped me, nothing was forceful about this.

Also around the time I was 6-7,  my experiences with a form of racism occured. I was a yankee living in Mobile, Al.   Needless to say, I had to deal with hatred by a number of kids at school.  Again, something that was by force.

In the process, of these things, I had to deal with a lot of dark sexual thoughts and fantasies at an earlier age.  In terms of keep a lid on these thoughts, and maintaining self-control.  Being a victim myself gave me a high degree of Empathy to not act on these thoughts.  Still, this was in internal struggle of questioning myself and dealing with this crap inside my head.

There are many things I could comment upon, in terms of the positives and the negatives both that came out of my early childhood.  Much of which I feel was the foundation for who and what I am today.

My salvation of sorts, was engaging in BDSM play activities, without getting laid, with my best friend, the girl who lived next door.  This all started happening around the time I was 13.  Believe it or not, she talked me into pretending to rape her without going all the way.  We did wax play, knife play, bondage, played with a whip, breath play, wrestling, pet role playing, other forms of role playing, needle play, tempory body art, even used lancets to prick each other and lick each others blood at times.  A whole slew of twisted activities.  It was consensual and it was a relief to have somebody to explore the dark things.  To even talk about and share our dark thoughts with one another.   It made me realize, that some girls are just as twisted as I am.  This was a bit of a God send in my life.

Move forward, I simply continued doing twisted things with girls.  Also, the elements of control in terms of the DOM side were all there.  Where I enjoyed the control and had issues with anybody trying to control me.  I can probally go into a long list of things.

Move forward a little more, I discover "the lifestyle" or learn about BDSM during it's early stages.  Perfect timing.  Basically, this is when I discovered a friend of mine was a submissive who was into the lifestyle.  She brought more enlightenment to me regarding WTF I had been doing, and my own Orientation.

Whew.......... The road of life...

Anyhoo...  there are other factors, such as my family cultural background.  Cultural and Social influences and mindsets.   Things that naturally became a part of me and who I am.

I was abuse, I interacted with a few that were abused themselves, went though a lot of different things.

I can say Abuse, did have a major contributing factor, but not the only factor.  I can see and understand the other things as well.

With that said, I am what I am today.  I can not make a statement that everybody who is into BDSM was abused or went through the crazy shit I went through.  I just know how it all relates to me and my life.




curvyslavegirl -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/2/2008 8:48:52 PM)

There is no evidence that abuse correlates to a later in life attraction to bdsm. In other words, when you look across a large number of people the ones who have been abused are no less or more likely to engage in bdsm behaviors. The likelihood is the same.
I have, however, read several studies on how people have learned to use bdsm in a healing way after childhood abuse though.

If you'd like me to dig them up for you I'd be more then welcome to.

Freud is interesting only as a historical reference, not as a guide to psychological principles.



Prinsexx -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 3:42:13 AM)

nah: sorry.
I had to write (yet0 anothe rpaper on frued in 1997 when i registered/qualified.
the title was:
Is the Freudian appraoch suitable for treating women within the post-modern psychotherapeutic session/
I researched long and hard. came to the conclusion that my own predilections and those of other women did not arise because they envied the cock, were threatened by fatherly penetration, or had 'half' of their minds repressed unto the other half.
I wrote three words;
Freud
Feminism
Fuck-off
My tutor (Glaswegian male bless him) marked it with a F.
So: i went back to my original research and wrote 15,000 words. Same conclusion as the fuck-off.
I got an A though with a comment that one day it was highly likely that i would make an original contribution to the field.
Although Freud's theories (on sexuality and insistence that anything other than a scart plug reality is a perversion) remain non-falsifiable so do my own theories on slave psychology.
As far as i am concerned there isn't a subconscious other than the necessities of the para sympathetic nervous system and the homestasis of the body.
But then how would i know even if i had a subconscious, it's not accessible by me.
Don't let the man draw you in. Hysteria was and always will be nice work if you can get it and enough i suppose to keep a client in therapy for around 11 years. All i am saying is that if frued had been my therapist i would have ended up hysterical and twitching like a dervish.



IrishMist -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 4:44:44 AM)

~general reply to the OP ~

My question would instead be...

What about those of us who LIKE and SEEK OUT abuse ( as it is defined by the mainstream ).

I admit...I like abuse...in its most primal form...I could care less about 'consent' and 'not doing harm to me'. I am the one who looks for those who ARE violent and abusive simply because that violence allows ME to be free.

I really am fucked up lol.



eyesopened -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 5:10:58 AM)

There's no across the board answer, each situation is different.  I grew up in as close to a 1950s tv sitcom family as you can get, lots of love, acceptance, and laughter.  No abuse of any sort, only one of my past relationships was abusive, emotionally and verbally, but I ended that marriage rather quickly once that crap started.  Yet, as a youngster, many years pre-pubescent, I fantasized about bondage, restraint, force, control.  Where did that come from?  I have no clue, but I know it didn't come from any sort of abuse.



Prinsexx -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 5:41:46 AM)

i can't forgive Frued.
He observed abuse in the society in which he lived. he observed reports of abuse using objective abd groundbreaking techniques (word association, hypnosis) which he himself 'invented'. The man created the therapeutic hour.
He presented Anna O to collegues out of purity of intention, to get psychotherapy recognised as a science by the leading medical practitioners of his time.
he then got rejected, went away, cretaed complexes to explain away the abuse and thus got recognised as a leader in the new field.
I first read about frued in an encyclopedia at 7 years old. the mind was pictured as a castle, the superego as a soldier and the id as a deep moat. The 'ego' or self was pictured as a potcullis, defending the place from the attacks of its own self.
I was shocked, engrossed, saddened, but drawn at the same time, like a magnet, to iron-like theories of the mind.
At the same time i also began to believe the reality of the structure of the personality, i lived through adolescence and young adulthood seeing psychs who asked me how i masturbated, TOLD me about what was going on in my mind. explained the abuse i had suffered during chuildhood as a complex i had about fearing my father's penis and being at odds with who i was as a women because of ambivalent feelings towards my mother. At no point, (until i discovered Buddhism through a friend, gestalt at college and the possibility of wholenesss) did i ever feel empowered with the ability to become enlightened or empower myself by structuring my own theories for self-actualisation.
If i had used Freud for anything more other than the critical starting block he was then, i might have topped myself with gulit for being bi-sexual and been admitted to a hospital for being sexually perverse or at times down right insane (from hysteria).
Bt it's still satisfying to have a cigar addicted narcisist to blame for all the fuck-uped models of the mind.
PS edited to add: yes i was abused as a child BUT i didn't know it was abuse back then. It was just a childhood i was having. Being told i was abused is the cause of my sexuality (according to the analytical model) now is a nonsense. My sexuality now is conscious, intentional and chosen as well as being consensual. If there's any small part of my sexuality which is driven by hidden forces of my 'id' then it's an id but not as we know it as 'm rather fond of my id as it happens.



missturbation -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 6:32:30 AM)

I know i can't control the direction of a thread but this was never meant to be about him per se.
 
quote:

So and please bear with me here....... my thoughts based on what i've read so far are hysteria manifests from a hidden unconscious idea in a person and becomes a psychological illness which alters our behaviour / thoughts / feelings.
If this is so could it possibly also then be linked to those of us who have suffered physical /mental / sexual abuse from partners in the past?


Before discovering bdsm is it possible the unconscious need for control / pain etc manifested into a form of hysteria in which the 'illness' displayed itself by attracting / seeking violent partners? This is of course assuming that bdsm has not been discovered by the abused person yet.

 
That is what it was about. Forget it is a Freudian theory, it really doesn't matter who wrote it, just whether it possibly on its own has any merit or not.




thetammyjo -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 7:27:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I know i can't control the direction of a thread but this was never meant to be about him per se.
 
quote:

So and please bear with me here....... my thoughts based on what i've read so far are hysteria manifests from a hidden unconscious idea in a person and becomes a psychological illness which alters our behaviour / thoughts / feelings.
If this is so could it possibly also then be linked to those of us who have suffered physical /mental / sexual abuse from partners in the past?


Before discovering bdsm is it possible the unconscious need for control / pain etc manifested into a form of hysteria in which the 'illness' displayed itself by attracting / seeking violent partners? This is of course assuming that bdsm has not been discovered by the abused person yet.

 
That is what it was about. Forget it is a Freudian theory, it really doesn't matter who wrote it, just whether it possibly on its own has any merit or not.




I would say that if one is consciously doing BDSM... I'd argue you cannot be doing BDSM unless it is conscious because you must give consent -- then you've invalidated this idea that is it unconscious. Oh you have have multitude of reasons for why you do anything, some our conscious, some not, I doubt that makes everything you do an illness or hysteria.

Being aware or unaware of why we do things seems pretty normal to me.



DesFIP -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 2:53:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Since sex ed in school does not usually explain about s & m, then someone with these needs, who doesn't understand what the needs are, would be likely to seek to sate them with a bad choice in partners. Nonconsensual abuse instead of negotiated, in other words.

Better bad breath than no breath at all, as the line goes.


It would have still been unconscious thought in me though unless of course given sex ed lessons which included bdsm.
It honestly didn't feel like better bad breath than no breath at all at the time. Although saying that i did repeatedly go back for more so maybe that was subconscious too.


I'm not sure. Are you positive you had no fantasies involving pain at that time? And if you had them, even if you tried to stuff them out of sight, then had you been given information explaining them you might indeed have had an "aha" moment.

Many masochists say that before they learned about masochism they chose partners who were abusive. Simply because nonabusive partners didn't do it for them due to the lack of pain. Knowledge is powerful, had you been given clear explanations which did not say it was bad, you might well have made healthier choices, and not gone back as often or for as long.



missturbation -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 4:58:58 PM)

quote:

I'm not sure. Are you positive you had no fantasies involving pain at that time? And if you had them, even if you tried to stuff them out of sight, then had you been given information explaining them you might indeed have had an "aha" moment.

I'm not 100% positive to be honest. I don't remember fantasising about pain but like you say i might have shoved it away in a corner of my brain. I do remember thinking when i was 16 that being hit etc was normal, that it was just the way it was. Now whether that was because i didn't know any different or a subconscious part of me knew it was what i wanted i don't know.

quote:

Many masochists say that before they learned about masochism they chose partners who were abusive. Simply because nonabusive partners didn't do it for them due to the lack of pain. Knowledge is powerful, had you been given clear explanations which did not say it was bad, you might well have made healthier choices, and not gone back as often or for as long.

I know at 16 i didn't have a clue about masochism, bdsm, any of it. Up until i met my um's dad at 17 i never had a non-abusive partner, so i don't know if i instinctively went for abusive ones because i needed the pain, or if i was just plain unlucky.
Funnily i never left the most abusive one once. He ended it with me and thank god he did because i would have quite likely been dead by now.



ADom442 -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 5:08:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
'With the exercise of a little caution all that is done is to translate into conscious ideas what was already known in the unconscious; and, after all, the whole effectiveness of the treatment is based upon our knowledge the affect attached to an unconscious idea operates more strongly and, since it cannot be inhibited, more injurously than the affect attached to a conscious one.'

...

Before discovering bdsm is it possible the unconscious need for control / pain etc manifested into a form of hysteria in which the 'illness' displayed itself by attracting / seeking violent partners? This is of course assuming that bdsm has not been discovered by the abused person yet.

...

So in my case and maybe others it was possible i had unconscious thoughts/ ideas about bdsm before i discovered it and this manifested into abusive relationships. My unconscious thoughts / ideas could not be inhibited or played out in a safe way, leading me to find the pain / control i desired subconsciously in an uncontrolled dangerous environment.
In finding bdsm my unconscious ideas /thoughts became conscious ones and i was then able to live them in a safe and controlled environment, relatively speaking.


Missturbation, (I like your nom de plume!)

Yes, I think you're definitely onto something here.

Let me first share my own perspective on the "unconscious." I don't think of the unconscious as capable of thinking and so having well formed ideas. Instead, (for me) it's more like a set of perspectives that we've come to have and which we've subsequently forgotten acquiring. In fact, we aren't even aware that we have acquired the perspectives that comprise the unconscious. We perceive those unconscious perspectives as just being a part of who we are.

That being said, it's easy to posit that we look for relationships that feel comfortable to us and allow us to be true to who we are - both our conscious selves and those unconscious perspectives we have on the world. When we're not aware (we're not conscious) of some of what we need to be fulfilled in our relationships, we could easily be willing to make compromises to get what we need. In your case, you might have been willing to have an abusive relationship in order to get other aspects of what you needed in a relationship.

I've only addressed the relationship aspects of a D/s relationship. I'd like to know your thoughts on the play that we do. Is the play just a physical realization of the D/s relationship, or is it more than that? The politically correct perspective on relationships and topping/bottoming is that while there's frequently a correlation, the role of a person in the relationship is independent of their role in play. Do you agree?



missturbation -> RE: Hysteria - a theory of mental,physical and sexual abusive relationships (9/3/2008 5:27:40 PM)

quote:

Is the play just a physical realization of the D/s relationship, or is it more than that?

Only a small part of the physical side of my relationship would i class as play. I have always disliked the term 'play' because i have never really been in a relationship where the play has been fun per se. Most 'play' for me has been brutal and harsh and extremely painful but that is what i had craved. Recently though i have discovered the softer side / lighter side of 'play' and so now don't mind the term so much.
So with the above in mind i don't think 'play', the softer stuff is the physical realisation of my relationship no. Play is just something fun we like to do occasionally.
The more brutal stuff is a realisation of my relationship and my status in it yes. I am His slave to do with as He pleases when He pleases and can be treat cruelly and harshly if He see fit or it pleases Him. Its more too though, a source of great pleasure for me, a source of release etc etc.
 
quote:

The politically correct perspective on relationships and topping/bottoming is that while there's frequently a correlation, the role of a person in the relationship is independent of their role in play. Do you agree?

Not entirely. I have many roles in my relationship with Sir and a few in play. However they all link back to me being His slave.



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