Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Cluster bombing South Ossetia


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Cluster bombing South Ossetia Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 12:34:52 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		During the military action last month there were claims that the Russians had used cluster bombs.  Although most Nato countries have moved to ban them recently, both Russia and the US have dodged signing up.  This news has broken on the day that the EU discusses measures to force a Russian withdrawal.

quote:


A prominent human rights group says Georgia has admitted dropping cluster bombs in its military offensive to assert control over the restive province of South Ossetia.



http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5je4oTliESokD-zge0diVbbczCPIgD92TT2VG0


< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 9/1/2008 12:45:12 PM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 12:56:03 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Just me but, within reason, wars fought half arsed kill more people in the long run. Using the most deadly force you can may seem barbaric but save lives in the end.

Not advocating the A-bomb of course or war... but cluster bombs with all their deadly problems may have still saved lives in a shorter war.

I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/1/2008 1:02:40 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 1:48:36 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I posted a link during the first week or so of the current engagement from a human rights watchdog group on the ground, that stated those cluster bombs were dropped in CIVILIAN areas.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 1:55:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area.

There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq.

Butch

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:01:16 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area.

There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq.

Butch


It is generally considered a "civilian area"  if there are no military targets.  Hospitals, schools, apartment complexes, shopping areas, etc... are not valid targets, unless they are being used to launch attacks from or as safe havens.

Hope that clears it up.  Too, the stated reason was "peace keeping" not war, therefore Russia has gone well beyond even what would be considered legit in war.

Just sayin,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:05:59 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		     As I'm reading the link, Kd, it seems the Georgians are the ones who admit to using them.  The tunnel to Russia doesn't sound all that "civilian" to me.  In fact, it sounds like a pretty critical strategic point.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:14:39 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area.

There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq.

Butch


It is generally considered a "civilian area"  if there are no military targets.  Hospitals, schools, apartment complexes, shopping areas, etc... are not valid targets, unless they are being used to launch attacks from or as safe havens.

Hope that clears it up.  Too, the stated reason was "peace keeping" not war, therefore Russia has gone well beyond even what would be considered legit in war.

Just sayin,
Thadius


Understood but I seem to remember a tactic used against US forces all the time. Enemy combatants set emplacements and hide in so-called Civilian areas.

Not saying it happened there but what possible benefit would Russian forces have in purposely bombing civilians. They know world opinion is important in this type of conflict. To me it just does not make sense.

Butch

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:20:39 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Causing fear of impending doom amongst the civilian population along the border areas, can be a powerful tool for undermining the elected government of Georgia.  Regardless of world opinion, as we see they care little for that now, it has to do with making a former satelite kow-tow.

That is about as simple as I can sum it up.

Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:34:51 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Modern armies don't half-step, we accept this.  But the problem with cluster bombs is that the unexploded bomblets they spread present a serious hazard long after hostilities have ceased - the "civilian area" rubric is not that sound.  Today's "legitimate target" is tomorrow's civilian area - the road into South Ossetia being the case in point.  Did Georgian commanders think no civilian would ever use it again?

The claims about Russian use of the weapon have been disputed by the independent expert originally cited with identifying them, Norwegian Ove Dullum.  He apparently says the bombs are of a type previously used solely by the US and Israel and  not known to be part of the Russian armoury.

Can a weapon be despicable - unless used by an ally?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 2:38:12 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think the megalomaniac so-called leader of Georgia would care about civilian casualties and an election...but just my opinion. The resulting bad publicity to Russia to me at least would far outweigh making the civilian population fearful.

The Russians had no fear of their military nor needed leverage against Saakashvili.

Butch

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 3:02:39 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Causing fear of impending doom amongst the civilian population along the border areas, can be a powerful tool for undermining the elected government of Georgia.  Regardless of world opinion, as we see they care little for that now, it has to do with making a former satelite kow-tow.



Looking at it objectively however, it's obvious that any country suffering a surprise attack will respond by calling for a change of leadership of the country which launches the offensive.  They aren't about to say, "Back off, warmonger - but stay in post; we trust you not to attack again!".

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 4:11:02 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second.

Butch


Butch, did you not see the horrific photos of the road to Basra ? What was that, if not full force ? The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/1/2008 4:32:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second.

Butch


Butch, did you not see the horrific photos of the road to Basra ? What was that, if not full force ? The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum


Yes then we stopped...did not pursue the war to an ending...this was not maximum force... And we paid the price with 4000 plus US dead and thousands and thousands of Iraqi dead.

And I'm not forgetting the British dead as well... Look at any war that is not fought to conclusion... you always have the same continual problems.

That engagement was relatively small with few casualties…most fled from the 1,500 vehicles before they were destroyed. It was just the unprecedented coverage that made it seem so devastating.

Butch






< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/1/2008 4:33:35 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/2/2008 4:44:59 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so



I think the fact that the Gulf War and South Ossetia are such different conflicts limits the value of comparison.  Modern armaments from depleted uranium to cluster bombs are all very potent.  The Georgians caught the Russians on the hop but they responded quickly with a combined force that far exceeded the Georgian capability.  Looking back, the Georgians are kicking themselves for not anticipating that.

But just a couple of weeks ago, the Georgians were screwing about the Russian use of cluster bombs when its clear now that (whether the Russians used them or not) the Georgians were the first to use them.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia - 9/2/2008 7:00:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second.

Butch


The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum


The reason Saddam wasn't removed in the first gulf war was nothing to do with a mandate since there was no mandate to remove him in the second war, it was to do with being sensible. As Schwartzhkop later said, the US army in Iraq would be like a mamoth in a tar pit.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Cluster bombing South Ossetia Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109