Cluster bombing South Ossetia

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RealityLicks -> Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 12:34:52 PM)
During the military action last month there were claims that the Russians had used cluster bombs. Although most Nato countries have moved to ban them recently, both Russia and the US have dodged signing up. This news has broken on the day that the EU discusses measures to force a Russian withdrawal. quote: A prominent human rights group says Georgia has admitted dropping cluster bombs in its military offensive to assert control over the restive province of South Ossetia. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5je4oTliESokD-zge0diVbbczCPIgD92TT2VG0

kdsub -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 12:56:03 PM)
Just me but, within reason, wars fought half arsed kill more people in the long run. Using the most deadly force you can may seem barbaric but save lives in the end. Not advocating the A-bomb of course or war... but cluster bombs with all their deadly problems may have still saved lives in a shorter war. I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second. Butch

Thadius -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 1:48:36 PM)
I posted a link during the first week or so of the current engagement from a human rights watchdog group on the ground, that stated those cluster bombs were dropped in CIVILIAN areas. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

kdsub -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 1:55:31 PM)
Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area. There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq. Butch

Thadius -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:01:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area. There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq. Butch It is generally considered a "civilian area" if there are no military targets. Hospitals, schools, apartment complexes, shopping areas, etc... are not valid targets, unless they are being used to launch attacks from or as safe havens. Hope that clears it up. Too, the stated reason was "peace keeping" not war, therefore Russia has gone well beyond even what would be considered legit in war. Just sayin, Thadius

TheHeretic -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:05:59 PM)
As I'm reading the link, Kd, it seems the Georgians are the ones who admit to using them. The tunnel to Russia doesn't sound all that "civilian" to me. In fact, it sounds like a pretty critical strategic point.

kdsub -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:14:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Thadius...I always wondered what people mean when the say civilian areas in a war. If an army is driving down Highway 44 in St. Louis it is in a civilian area... If a naval ship passed under the golden gate it is in a civilian area. There is no civilan area in war..I see no immediate benefit to Russia forces to drop cluster bombs except attempting to hit a military target. That is not to say mistakes will not be made... just look at Iraq. Butch It is generally considered a "civilian area" if there are no military targets. Hospitals, schools, apartment complexes, shopping areas, etc... are not valid targets, unless they are being used to launch attacks from or as safe havens. Hope that clears it up. Too, the stated reason was "peace keeping" not war, therefore Russia has gone well beyond even what would be considered legit in war. Just sayin, Thadius Understood but I seem to remember a tactic used against US forces all the time. Enemy combatants set emplacements and hide in so-called Civilian areas. Not saying it happened there but what possible benefit would Russian forces have in purposely bombing civilians. They know world opinion is important in this type of conflict. To me it just does not make sense. Butch

Thadius -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:20:39 PM)
Causing fear of impending doom amongst the civilian population along the border areas, can be a powerful tool for undermining the elected government of Georgia. Regardless of world opinion, as we see they care little for that now, it has to do with making a former satelite kow-tow. That is about as simple as I can sum it up. Thadius

RealityLicks -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:34:51 PM)
Modern armies don't half-step, we accept this. But the problem with cluster bombs is that the unexploded bomblets they spread present a serious hazard long after hostilities have ceased - the "civilian area" rubric is not that sound. Today's "legitimate target" is tomorrow's civilian area - the road into South Ossetia being the case in point. Did Georgian commanders think no civilian would ever use it again? The claims about Russian use of the weapon have been disputed by the independent expert originally cited with identifying them, Norwegian Ove Dullum. He apparently says the bombs are of a type previously used solely by the US and Israel and not known to be part of the Russian armoury. Can a weapon be despicable - unless used by an ally?

kdsub -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 2:38:12 PM)
I don't think the megalomaniac so-called leader of Georgia would care about civilian casualties and an election...but just my opinion. The resulting bad publicity to Russia to me at least would far outweigh making the civilian population fearful. The Russians had no fear of their military nor needed leverage against Saakashvili. Butch

RealityLicks -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 3:02:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius Causing fear of impending doom amongst the civilian population along the border areas, can be a powerful tool for undermining the elected government of Georgia. Regardless of world opinion, as we see they care little for that now, it has to do with making a former satelite kow-tow. Looking at it objectively however, it's obvious that any country suffering a surprise attack will respond by calling for a change of leadership of the country which launches the offensive. They aren't about to say, "Back off, warmonger - but stay in post; we trust you not to attack again!".

Politesub53 -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 4:11:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second. Butch Butch, did you not see the horrific photos of the road to Basra ? What was that, if not full force ? The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum

kdsub -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/1/2008 4:32:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second. Butch Butch, did you not see the horrific photos of the road to Basra ? What was that, if not full force ? The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum Yes then we stopped...did not pursue the war to an ending...this was not maximum force... And we paid the price with 4000 plus US dead and thousands and thousands of Iraqi dead. And I'm not forgetting the British dead as well... Look at any war that is not fought to conclusion... you always have the same continual problems. That engagement was relatively small with few casualties…most fled from the 1,500 vehicles before they were destroyed. It was just the unprecedented coverage that made it seem so devastating. Butch

RealityLicks -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/2/2008 4:44:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so I think the fact that the Gulf War and South Ossetia are such different conflicts limits the value of comparison. Modern armaments from depleted uranium to cluster bombs are all very potent. The Georgians caught the Russians on the hop but they responded quickly with a combined force that far exceeded the Georgian capability. Looking back, the Georgians are kicking themselves for not anticipating that. But just a couple of weeks ago, the Georgians were screwing about the Russian use of cluster bombs when its clear now that (whether the Russians used them or not) the Georgians were the first to use them.

meatcleaver -> RE: Cluster bombing South Ossetia (9/2/2008 7:00:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I believe the lack of full force in Iraq during the first war did nothing but show weakness and opened the way for the second. Butch The reasons Saddam wasnt removed in the first Gulf war, were because the Allies had no manadate to do so, and also didnt want the Shia to full any vacuum The reason Saddam wasn't removed in the first gulf war was nothing to do with a mandate since there was no mandate to remove him in the second war, it was to do with being sensible. As Schwartzhkop later said, the US army in Iraq would be like a mamoth in a tar pit.

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