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RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 4:05:10 AM

Dnomyar

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Joined: 6/27/2005
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Adressing someone by their honorific is a gray area with me. I had a Discriptive Geometry teacher in college who had a doctorate degree. He insisted we call him doctor instead of professor. Im not calling anyone doctor unless they have a medical degree. If your going to try to throw your degree in someones face you can shove it you know where. The thing about where I work now is that everyone from the Owner down is on a first name basis. I still use the word sir if we have customers visiting.

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 41

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 7:18:21 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
But it is REALLY irritating when a submissive at a munch is trying to get his attention for something and they holler out "Hey Sage!". As far as I'm concerned that is totally DIS-respectful.

Again, how fascinating. That never in a zillion years would've occurred to me as disrespectful. This has been an enormously helpful thread to me. I like to think of myself as flexible and I'd prefer to have the strength to meet others more than half way. This is certainly going to modify how I see using titles, both in the BDSM world and otherwise. Good god, I had never intended to offend anyone. At least to my way of thinking, only a handful of immature and insecure semi-adults might actually be offended and I honestly thought it better that they grow up than be coddled. This thread has definitely caused a major overhaul in my thinking on the topic.

And I would ask you "Why is it being coddled to expect to be addressed by the title you have earned?" I'd also ask you to look within yourself and ask if you aren't the one expecting to be coddled...your own word...by expecting other adults who've worked hard to earn those titles to cast them aside so you feel comfortable addressing them in the way that you think should be good enough for anyone?

I have no problem with someone with someone who wants to be addressed by their first name right off the bat and will attempt to do so, though from MY end, it seems to be an attempt to be "familiar and cozy" right off the bat. I was taught, by my folks and by society when I was growing up, that I always addressed people as Sir, Ma'am, Miss UNTIL they invited me to use their first name. And, when I didn't know them that well and yet, they invited me to use their first name, it felt awkward. I still call my old music teacher Mr. Overton, for God's sake...and I've been his doctor for 20 years.

As I noted in my own prior post, I have no problem with meeting someone in a social D/s setting and being addressed by my first name before anyone comes to know me fully well. Though truth be told, it seems strange to me that being addressed as Sir ...a common courtesy in any culture...would come after you come to know me and I have earned your respect but the more familiar use of my name would come first.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 42

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 7:45:30 AM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I have no problem with someone with someone who wants to be addressed by their first name right off the bat and will attempt to do so, though from MY end, it seems to be an attempt to be "familiar and cozy" right off the bat. I was taught, by my folks and by society when I was growing up, that I always addressed people as Sir, Ma'am, Miss UNTIL they invited me to use their first name. And, when I didn't know them that well and yet, they invited me to use their first name, it felt awkward.

I understand where you are coming from, CD, however I'm curious... do you call any prospective submissive "ma'am" or "miss" until you know her well enough to refer to her by her first name?

I was raised similarly, though it was primarily that children do not call adults by their first name. I will still use "sir" and "ma'am" with strangers, but it honestly depends upon the setting. With Firm, I refer to him mostly by diminutives (sweetheart, love, etc.) when addressing him and occasionally a "sir" will slip out if he's made a request or asked a question.

He throws me every now and again with a "yes, ma'am".

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 43

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 11:38:22 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I have no problem with someone with someone who wants to be addressed by their first name right off the bat and will attempt to do so, though from MY end, it seems to be an attempt to be "familiar and cozy" right off the bat. I was taught, by my folks and by society when I was growing up, that I always addressed people as Sir, Ma'am, Miss UNTIL they invited me to use their first name. And, when I didn't know them that well and yet, they invited me to use their first name, it felt awkward.

I understand where you are coming from, CD, however I'm curious... do you call any prospective submissive "ma'am" or "miss" until you know her well enough to refer to her by her first name?

As a matter of fact, Treasure...even when I started learning about D/s in the chatrooms, I called any submissive who approached me "miss". They were usually thrown and would ask me to call them just by their screen name. When I have met submissives in a social setting, I have...though not always...addressed them as "miss". It has garnered me some strange looks but oddly enough, the fact that I not only am of a certain age but appear to be and the fact that I do so in a courteous manner and not a supercilious or condescending manner seems to cut me some slack.

I was raised similarly, though it was primarily that children do not call adults by their first name. I will still use "sir" and "ma'am" with strangers, but it honestly depends upon the setting. With Firm, I refer to him mostly by diminutives (sweetheart, love, etc.) when addressing him and occasionally a "sir" will slip out if he's made a request or asked a question.

He throws me every now and again with a "yes, ma'am".

And in a D/s dynamic...especially given that I prefer it to be with a romantic partner who is also my submissive...I enjoy being called "honey", "dear", "you big adorable angelic hunk of man, you" every bit as much as I enjoy hearing "my Sir" or Master. I also like hearing my name once in awhile from my partner as, to me, there is something special about hearing my name spoken by the voice of the woman who cares about me.

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 44

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 11:44:24 AM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
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I tend to use Sir/Ma'am/Mr./Mrs. xxxx(usually first name), quite often in public environments. Mainly, I think, because my family is originally from the 'Good Ol' South', and that's how I was always brought up, and it kind of stuck. None of my pets have ever said anything about it either, or even looked at me odd. Then again, I often lead by example, and treat everyone with some degree of respect (well, most everyone), unless they've specifically un-earned it. I expect my pets to do the same, so, it wouldn't look very good if I had them do so, and I didn't.

_____________________________

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 45

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 12:02:58 PM

thishereboi

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Joined: 6/19/2008
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To me it is a sign of respect or being polite. I would want my Mistress to treat others with respect, just as I would want her to be treated with respect. I don't see being polite as being demeaning.

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"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

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(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 46

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/29/2008 1:41:39 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
And I would ask you "Why is it being coddled to expect to be addressed by the title you have earned?" I'd also ask you to look within yourself and ask if you aren't the one expecting to be coddled...your own word...by expecting other adults who've worked hard to earn those titles to cast them aside so you feel comfortable addressing them in the way that you think should be good enough for anyone?

I think you have hit on what has been bothering me. I have been involved in groups where titles are indeed earned, or bestowed upon people by their peers due to their service, or their skills displayed, or whatever... groups where you do not declare yourself to be something and then demand/ask/whatever that people address you by that title.

In BDSM, you can declare yourself as anything you want to be. But to act like you (the generic "you") have earned a title, other than a simple courtesy of the way you would address anyone in or out of BDSM, well that seems more than a tad bit presumptuous.

Going back to (oops, what I deleted)... if someone's name was Sage, and I wanted their attention, and they were not deep in convo with someone, I'm just not seeing what part of "hey Sage?" is rude or disrespectful. Obviously, YMMV (again, generic "you").

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 47

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 12:55:55 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
And I would ask you "Why is it being coddled to expect to be addressed by the title you have earned?" I'd also ask you to look within yourself and ask if you aren't the one expecting to be coddled...your own word...by expecting other adults who've worked hard to earn those titles to cast them aside so you feel comfortable addressing them in the way that you think should be good enough for anyone?

I think you have hit on what has been bothering me. I have been involved in groups where titles are indeed earned, or bestowed upon people by their peers due to their service, or their skills displayed, or whatever... groups where you do not declare yourself to be something and then demand/ask/whatever that people address you by that title.

And that is what I was referring to...the title I have earned. The title noted a couple of posts earlier and known about by most people on here.

quote:

In BDSM, you can declare yourself as anything you want to be. But to act like you (the generic "you") have earned a title, other than a simple courtesy of the way you would address anyone in or out of BDSM, well that seems more than a tad bit presumptuous.

For anything other than the common courtesy titles of "Sir", "Ma'am", "Miss"...I agree. Not everyone coming up to me, unless they have been introduced to me, knows that I am a doctor and therefore I don't expect the use of that title until I am introduced to them. But I could meet Jay Wiseman or John Warren tomorrow and I would address them as "Sir" or Mr. Wiseman or Mr. Warren and, until I got to know them, would feel a bit uncomfortable using their first name. Call it my upbringing and my life. ~shrug~

quote:

Going back to (oops, what I deleted)... if someone's name was Sage, and I wanted their attention, and they were not deep in convo with someone, I'm just not seeing what part of "hey Sage?" is rude or disrespectful. Obviously, YMMV (again, generic "you").
Cali

And that may just be due to differing perspectives or manners-instruction or whatever you want to call it during formative years, cali. I know why it would perturb me to have it done and I know that is why I would not do it to someone. I have a hard time doing it with friends.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 48

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 1:12:15 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
And that is what I was referring to...the title I have earned. The title noted a couple of posts earlier and known about by most people on here.

Sorry, I misunderstood and thought you were referring to something else. Although my thoughts still apply to people who have no earned title but act like they do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

Going back to (oops, what I deleted)... if someone's name was Sage, and I wanted their attention, and they were not deep in convo with someone, I'm just not seeing what part of "hey Sage?" is rude or disrespectful.

And that may just be due to differing perspectives or manners-instruction or whatever you want to call it during formative years, cali. I know why it would perturb me to have it done and I know that is why I would not do it to someone. I have a hard time doing it with friends.

The part that I deleted had to do with SUBMISSIVES calling him by his name. In my world, we are on even footing, we are peers... whether I identify as dominant or submissive or switch or straight or bisexual or any other label I want to slap on myself... that has no bearing on my hierarchy with other people, dominants or non-dominants. If it is not disrespectful for another "label" to use his name, then it is not disrespectful for me to use his name.

Since most people I meet at munches, parties, demos, etc., do NOT use their whole name, their real name, any part of their real name, etc., but one name that they have chosen (as I do as well), there is not much choice other than the information they have given me.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 49

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 1:20:09 PM

mbes

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
I have no problem with someone with someone who wants to be addressed by their first name right off the bat and will attempt to do so, though from MY end, it seems to be an attempt to be "familiar and cozy" right off the bat. I was taught, by my folks and by society when I was growing up, that I always addressed people as Sir, Ma'am, Miss UNTIL they invited me to use their first name. And, when I didn't know them that well and yet, they invited me to use their first name, it felt awkward. I still call my old music teacher Mr. Overton, for God's sake...and I've been his doctor for 20 years.

~~off bdsm-topic, but still referring to name usage~~
I do love to hear this attitude in a doctor, that you don't expect to call patients by their first names while using the title yourself. That always sounds so arrogant to me to do otherwise. If you want your title, use mine.
I suppose that does explain a bit how I feel even in the bdsm-realm, though. "Sir" and "ma'am" aren't likely to come out of my mouth unless they are reciprocal, or otherwise negotiated.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 50

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 1:37:08 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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I must have missed the flier about the school where members of bdsm communities "earn" their titles. Unless there is universal consensus about what constitutes "earning", then this phrase is kind of like a politicians promise - usually nonspecific enough to leave wriggle room, but not so specific as to be defined.

I would think a title can only be earned in a given realtime community, and unless there is reciprosity, then on the internet any fool can claim a title ( i'm sure that no-one reading this is one of those). I don't think there can be universal respect. If respect is earned by deeds then the only respect on the internet is going to be based on postings, and everyone knows posting can be by a green martian , for all we know.

With that in mind, perhapes the only title on line can really be one of politeness, since no-one can be universally known and acknowledged as having "earned" their title.

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 51

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 4:55:39 PM

TreasureKY

Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes

... If you want your title, use mine.

Trying not to go too much farther off topic, but not really succeeding...

I guess I've got a bit of a stubborn streak... I've taken that attitude, as well, with people who've demanded I address them in a particularly formal manner, yet who've tried to call me by my first name.

I've communicated with dominants before who've insisted I call them "Master so-and-so". My response would typically be something along the lines of, "Of course. And you should reciprocate by calling me 'Miss _____'. "

I realize that some don't consider that to be a very good indication of submissiveness, but my opinion is that titles such as mister, ma'am, miss, doctor, etc. are formal forms of address and are reserved for use with either strangers or individuals with whom you have an impersonal relationship. If someone is wanting to develop a intimate relationship with me, that kind of distance doesn't work. Submissiveness comes after we've gotten to the personal part, and you can't get personal if you have to maintain distance.

Fortunately for me, Firm isn't a stickler for me calling him "sir". He does like it... it harkens back to his days as a military officer and to him denotes respect. I have a problem with it, strangely enough due to similar experiences. It reminds me of my military service, as well, but doesn't bring to mind respect... more like distance. "Sir" is a separator... officers are called "sir", enlisted are not... it's a reminder of difference in class and mindset... officers are "better" than enlisted.

While I greatly admire and respect Firm... while I have handed to him authority over me and have pledged to him my loyalty... he is not "better" than me. We are equals, though not equal in authority.

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 52

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 8/30/2008 6:54:45 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Personally, I can't warp my head around your objection. A boss, in my opinion, should be called "Sir" or "Ma'am". Being called "Sir" or "Ma'am" doesn't always have to do with age, though sometimes it does. When I was 17 and teaching 30+ year olds martial arts they refered to me as "Miss *last name*" and"Ma'am" out of respect for the fact that I knew more than them and were teaching them.

Like others, I also feel that it's simply good manners - regardless of how much he likes the guy. As with many words, it has mutiple meanings. That's how we were raised and how we will raise our children.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 53

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 9/2/2008 7:08:05 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes

... If you want your title, use mine.

Trying not to go too much farther off topic, but not really succeeding...

I guess I've got a bit of a stubborn streak... I've taken that attitude, as well, with people who've demanded I address them in a particularly formal manner, yet who've tried to call me by my first name.

I've communicated with dominants before who've insisted I call them "Master so-and-so". My response would typically be something along the lines of, "Of course. And you should reciprocate by calling me 'Miss _____'. "

I realize that some don't consider that to be a very good indication of submissiveness, but my opinion is that titles such as mister, ma'am, miss, doctor, etc. are formal forms of address and are reserved for use with either strangers or individuals with whom you have an impersonal relationship. If someone is wanting to develop a intimate relationship with me, that kind of distance doesn't work. Submissiveness comes after we've gotten to the personal part, and you can't get personal if you have to maintain distance.

Fortunately for me, Firm isn't a stickler for me calling him "sir". He does like it... it harkens back to his days as a military officer and to him denotes respect. I have a problem with it, strangely enough due to similar experiences. It reminds me of my military service, as well, but doesn't bring to mind respect... more like distance. "Sir" is a separator... officers are called "sir", enlisted are not... it's a reminder of difference in class and mindset... officers are "better" than enlisted.

While I greatly admire and respect Firm... while I have handed to him authority over me and have pledged to him my loyalty... he is not "better" than me. We are equals, though not equal in authority.

Can't speak for Firm...I am not him. But perhaps part of the reason he enjoys the title of "Sir" is not only that it harkens back to "good days" for him but that, in the present time, you have given over authority over you and loyalty to him, thereby indicating your respect for him. I would presume that, following over this giving of authority and loyalty, he has proven...and continues to prove...that your trust in his level of responsibility in handling these matters is well-placed and thereby, deserving of your respect.

"Sir" or "miss" do not have to be distance-creators; they can be indicative of position...the leader and the follower. Please note that it is not assumed that the leader is better than the follower in any D/s relationship...as a matter of fact, many go out of their way to acknowledge this...but he is in a DIFFERING role. Just as Sir indicates respect for his/her position the term of "miss" or "girl" or "boy" indicates both the role and the respect for the position of the follower. Want to personalize it? You can always try on "MY Sir" or "MY girl" or whatever you choose that makes it possessive and personal rather than formalized.

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 54

RE: Dominants "Sir-ing" socially - 9/2/2008 3:34:37 PM

mbes

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
"Sir" or "miss" do not have to be distance-creators; they can be indicative of position...the leader and the follower. Please note that it is not assumed that the leader is better than the follower in any D/s relationship...as a matter of fact, many go out of their way to acknowledge this...but he is in a DIFFERING role. Just as Sir indicates respect for his/her position the term of "miss" or "girl" or "boy" indicates both the role and the respect for the position of the follower. Want to personalize it? You can always try on "MY Sir" or "MY girl" or whatever you choose that makes it possessive and personal rather than formalized.

Ah, thank you. I think you hit on the crux of the matter for me in this one.
I do not have a role, or the position of follower, with random others; only with one person.
Now when it does come to the possessive and personal, I'm good with all kinds of "titles" and names. Just not with Joe Blow I've never met before!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 55

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