RE: Politics Of Change?

RE: Politics Of Change? (Full Version)

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sappatoti -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:32:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: sappatoti The politicians hate being outed like that and engage in whatever means they have at their disposal in attempts to keep their activities covered, including arresting some on a public sidewalk where the expectations of privacy are nil. Oh yeah? Politicians can ask the cops to do their dirty work for them? Amazing. Doesn't bode well for civil liberties, does it? No, it does not. Unfortunately, this kind of tactic has been used for quite a long time in the US, whether we as a country want to admit to it or not. Usually, the person being arrested will be held until either the event has passed or the legal time limits s/he can be held without being formally charged and booked have expired, then be released. Of course, it depends upon what the person was actually doing. Sometimes there is enough evidence to justify that the charges be made formal. In the case of the OP, the evidence presented is from the very company that hired the producer; perhaps a bit one-sided for me to fully judge the situation. To know the entire story one must examine any other evidence gathered from any other possible witnesses, such as any phone calls that might have been made to the police by the complainants or the complete exchange as it was taped by other competitive news organizations who might have witnessed the event, etc.

kittinSol -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:33:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius The National Fraternal Order of Police, only claims 325k members. So there is no way to say if they would go one way or another, at least in my opinion. Thanks for a frank and direct reply.

Alumbrado -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:35:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado You seem to be lying about what I said again, but how is that new? That's such poor debating tactics, (insulting someone you're just having a discussion with), I shan't even bother reading you anymore: one gets tired of the fabrications after a while. Enjoy the antagonism. What is a poor debating 'tactic' is you lying about what is said, and then claiming to have been insulted when called on your fabrications. As is running away when your trolling is debunked.

kittinSol -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:36:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sappatoti No, it does not. Unfortunately, this kind of tactic has been used for quite a long time in the US, whether we as a country want to admit to it or not. So the police responds to a request by a politician and makes up a bogus reason for the arrest... it's scary. What do police officers get in exchange for rendering this 'service'? Advancement?

Alumbrado -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:43:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It's irrelevant to my question whether they can sway an election or not: I am interested in finding out whether the cops, as a profession, are more likely to vote one way or another. You seem to say they are equally spread out between the two main parties though, aren't you? That's all I wanted to know. It would depend on what city they are in, if they are unionized, etc... The National Fraternal Order of Police, only claims 325k members. So there is no way to say if they would go one way or another, at least in my opinion. As a former member of an FOP state BOD, I saw no unanimity in how they vote. When the FOP endorsed Bill Clinton's first presidential nomination bid, they were besieged with angry complaints by members... they pointed out that no one but the Clinton campaign had bothered to provided the FOP with a response, leaving them with little choice. The major parties simply don't care about a group that small, even if they pay lip service to them.

Thadius -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:47:57 AM)
I would even think that the voting habits of members would be different when considering local and national elections. Yet another reason that I love the secret ballot.

Steponme73 -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:56:03 AM)
The Democrats are no different than the republicans. Big money is what is controlling what is taking place. Always has been that way always will.

Alumbrado -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 8:57:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius I would even think that the voting habits of members would be different when considering local and national elections. Yet another reason that I love the secret ballot. And a reason why some Sheriffs, Mayors, and Chiefs hate it...[:D]

sappatoti -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 10:20:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: sappatoti No, it does not. Unfortunately, this kind of tactic has been used for quite a long time in the US, whether we as a country want to admit to it or not. So the police responds to a request by a politician and makes up a bogus reason for the arrest... it's scary. I don't think it was as easy as a politician snapping his fingers and the police lapdogs immediately arrest the news producer. ;-) A more reasonable explanation (Warning: pure speculation as I was not a witness) would be: ... the arriving politicians are questioned/filmed by a news crew ... the politicians request the crew stops ... the crew denies the request and keeps questioning/filming other arriving politicians ... the politicians, who are paying customers (in some fashion) of the hotel, request the management ask the news crew to relocate elsewhere ... the management, trying to keep paying customers happy, makes the request to the crew to move along ... the news crew denies the request and keeps questioning/filming ... management calls the police to ask if they could get the news crew, who are bothering their paying customers, to move along as the space they occupy is a public place ... the police arrive, witness the proceedings, and ask the crew to move along ... the crew denies the request, perhaps belligerently enough that the police feel an arrest is the only way to defuse the situation ... Again, this is pure speculation on my part. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol What do police officers get in exchange for rendering this 'service'? Advancement? Not directly, no. However, they'll have the knowledge that there won't be a possible insubordination reference placed in their personnel file for refusing to respond to a call. Again, my speculation. {edited for minor grammatical issues]

kittinSol -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 10:39:53 AM)
The chain of events you imagined sounds very plausible indeed... it's not that surprising, on reflexion, that this kind of things would happen: thanks for enlightening me :-) .

Sanity -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 11:00:03 AM)
Plausible, except that it is extremely unusual for police to try to order a news crew to leave a public area for no good reason, other than to please some rather camera shy politicians. As was pointed out earlier in the thread it is their constitutional right to be there and to ask questions. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol The chain of events you imagined sounds very plausible indeed... it's not that surprising, on reflexion, that this kind of things would happen: thanks for enlightening me :-) .

kittinSol -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 11:02:02 AM)
[sm=club.gif]

celticlord2112 -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 11:45:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Plausible, except that it is extremely unusual for police to try to order a news crew to leave a public area for no good reason, other than to please some rather camera shy politicians. As was pointed out earlier in the thread it is their constitutional right to be there and to ask questions. Plausible, yes. Legal (for the cops), no.

Alumbrado -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 3:41:19 PM)
Actually, there isn't enough information on that video to know... just because someone is standing outdoors, doesn't mean they weren't trespassing or violating some other ordinance at some point, in which case an order to leave can be quite legal, if done properly. And 'OK hold on" while turning away isn't considered compliance by everyone...[;)]

Sanity -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 3:57:10 PM)
Something tells me that if the shoe were on the other foot, if these were Republicans meeting with some big, fat moneybag-toting lobbyists, maybe it wouldn't be coming from you, Al - but this thread would be filled with howling over the grave and tragic injustice of it all quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Actually, there isn't enough information on that video to know... just because someone is standing outdoors, doesn't mean they weren't trespassing or violating some other ordinance at some point, in which case an order to leave can be quite legal, if done properly. And 'OK hold on" while turning away isn't considered compliance by everyone...[;)]

Irishknight -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 4:01:14 PM)
It is not a constitutional right to trespass. If that was the case then its all good. I would charge any news crew setting up on my property without my permission with trespassing. If they were bothering my paying customers, it would happen even faster. Having dealt with so called "journalists" before, I think the majority of them should be in jail. That is just my personal viewpoint and bias though. Freedom of the press should stop when they invade another person's private life or step off of public property. Their "rights of free press" seem to override the rights of everyone else in their minds way too often. edited because I am a really bad typist

Alumbrado -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 4:04:44 PM)
quote: Something tells me that if the shoe were on the other foot Which still does nothing to provide enough information to know for certain whether the cops crossed the line, or the reporter is faking. Both of which are distinct possibilities.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Of Change? (8/28/2008 4:18:48 PM)
It's true, I agree that we can't see everything that happened but it sure looks like they're on a public sidewalk to me.

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