selfish bottom

selfish bottom (Full Version)

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persephonee -> selfish bottom (8/20/2008 8:39:44 AM)
i read the term, "selfish bottom" in a current thread today and it reminded me that i have heard the term bottom used in a negative context lately in several venues. i identify as a bottom for several reasons and i dont think im any more selfish or less worthy than any submissive or slave in the world. i simply am waiting to submit fully to the Dominant that i feel a connection to in that way. Until i can say that i have honestly submitted to another in a relationship, i dont feel i can call myself a submissive. Its simply a matter of respect for me. Even in the last paragraph, i placed bottom under submissive as if submissive is the ideal and bottom is somehow lacking. There is more to D/s than the "scene" or the sex and i am fully aware of that and can hardly wait. But its disheartening to feel that others look "down" on what i identify with personally. Is it completely bad form for me to feel that submission is not a gift but more of an exchange? Or does this put me, again, in the catagory of "selfish bottom" simply because i acknowledge that i have needs too and that a relationship of any flavor is must fulfill both parties if it is to succeed? Please note that it is my goal to be a good submissive partner to my eventual Dom. i am simply learning and wanted to know, especially from the veterans of this site, if by me identifying as a bottom reads automatically that i am selfish to such an extent that i would have trouble finding what i am ideally looking for....a D/s dynamic that works for all parties involved. Thank you in advance for your time in answering. Please know that i approach with the utmost respect to everyone reading this post.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 8:47:00 AM)
I believe the difference between a bottom and a selfish bottom is the way they interact with their partner. Some bottoms are open and mutually enjoy their interactions wit the dominant or top they are with. Selfish bottoms are all about their plasure, regardless of who the other person is and what they want. Just like a toppy sub or a demanding slave... someone who wants to be the s/b and yet has a laundry list of what the D/T should do to them in order for them to be happy. There is nothing wrong with being a bottom, as long as you are a respectful one who is interested in making your partner happy as well as being happy yourself. Anyone who is selfcentered (and yes, I include self centered Dominants in this... it is not ALL about them or they would never kep a sub/slave for long) is setting themselves up for eventual failure. In a partnership of any kind, if one side is getting nothing in the exchange that side is eventually going to look for something more fulfilling. A selfish bottom offers nothing in return, which is why they are looked down upon. DV

chamberqueen -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 10:59:03 AM)
I agree completely with the above post. A "selfish" bottom care more about themselves and their pleasure than their partners. Examples could be expecting gifts (whether material or of time or attention), may withhold sex or other services unless they have gotten what they want, and even though in a "submissive" position may really be running the show. That doesn't sound like you at all. If anything, you seem to show great respect for the position and know that it will take the right person to bring out the best in you.

persephonee -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 11:08:06 AM)
~FR~ i am grateful to hear that comment as i feel that my partners find me far from selfish. And i do defer to "my" Doms in a lot of ways outside of whatever scene we have going. i have D/s friendships at this time in my estimation. Every one of the dominant men i consider to be friends of mine characterize me as at least submissive potentially in the context of what they have experienced with me. And everyone i play with currently has an ongoing relationship with me outside of any scene we share. Time and fate will determine if i am given the opportunity to submit fully in the way i seek.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 11:26:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee Is it completely bad form for me to feel that submission is not a gift but more of an exchange? Or does this put me, again, in the catagory of "selfish bottom" simply because i acknowledge that i have needs too and that a relationship of any flavor is must fulfill both parties if it is to succeed? I completely adore and cherish the bottoms that I scene with. To me, I consider them 'bottoms' rather than servants when we are only sharing a scene together -- and maybe only once or twice, rather than me scening with them regularly. I get to use their body as a canvas. My 'bottom' friends also don't submit to me at all -- they are (and I am) in it for the particulars of the scene, and when it is over, we're pretty much egalitarian about things. My part-time submissive "servants", are a little different -- and this, to me, is the key thing. My servants, even if they're only part-time, yield up -themselves-... they submit to me, and to my authority, whenever we're together, regardless of whether we're in scene together or not. If they offer up anything other than just their body for some playtime, to me, they are my servants... they wear my collar (all the time if they want to, or only when we're together if their life requires it), but when we -are- together, they defer to me. These would be what many people would refer to as "submissives", rather than "bottoms". To my mind, there isn't a -value judgement- placed on either category... I love both those who bottom to me and those who submit to me and cherish them in my life... for me, it is a matter of semantics, so that I can describe what our relationship consists of, and whether or not the person is actually submitting to my will, in a way that all parties will understand, so there are fewer chances to misinterpret our relationships. There was an earlier thread this week concerning fulfillment -- it is my belief that we do not stay in relationships where we are not fulfilled in some way. Even though an outside party may not understand how fulfillment is being reached by the participating individuals, in order for a relationship to survive, everyone involved has to be getting something out of the relationship. I don't see how a 'bottom' in a negotiated scene can be perceived as being 'selfish' -- as long as the scene was agreed upon, everyone involved gets something out of it. I know that, when I do cutting or piercing, I get an energetic "kick" out of doing the work. The bottom involved may be getting an endorphin rush, or getting pain cravings satisfied... but if I wasn't enjoying what I was doing and getting something out of it as well, I wouldn't be there doing it... what would be the point? I'm getting my blood-kick fulfilled, xhe's getting her pain craving fulfilled... everyone's happy. In my mind, the same thing goes for submission relationships. There is no such thing as a 'selfish' dominant or submissive if the relationship has been negotiated well -- whatever one side accepts or yields gives something to both parties. As in any relationship, there is -always- a give and take. The only time, as a pastoral care counselor, that I've seen 'selfish' relationships take hold is when there were unspecified "expectations" laid on one of the parties involved -- expectations that were never negotiated, were never clearly defined, and which, on occasion, neither side had ever acknowledged as even coloring their relationship dynamic. Often, it takes someone outside of these situations to find these hidden expectations and make them visible -- at which point, they can be discussed, negotiated, and the future of the relationship -including- those expectations, can be re-evaluated. For example -- there is a submissive who has accepted a position where xhe is supposed to be a 'foot servant' for a dominant individual. According to their negotiations, the foot servant will attend to all the dominant individuals' foot and shoe care, and everyone is happy with that... however, the dominant individual doesn't think to mention that xhe also expects that the foot servant will kneel at hir feet and not have hir head higher than the dominants when xhe's serving -- the dominant person visualizes this as the 'natural' position for a foot servant, and just doesn't think to mention it. The foot servant has never thought about how xhe was positioned in service, and just goes on with hir negotiated duties, positioning hirself in the way that seems most productive at the time -- but on at least several occasions over a period of weeks, the servant ends up in a position where hir head is higher than the dominants for a period of time. The dominant gets annoyed, and the servant can't figure out what xhe's doing wrong... the dominant just keeps making comments like "you aren't being submissive to me" or "you're not submissive enough" or "you're challenging my authority", and yet the servant doesn't understand what xhe's doing wrong, when xhe knows xhe's doing everything that they agreed to.... it is the hidden 'expectation', that is unvoiced and often not even consciously perceived, that is causing the friction -- not selfishness or 'unsubmissiveness', and it is these hidden expectations (both in relationships and in BDSM communities) that often cause people to look at someone and make inaccurate judgements about that person's capacity or skill in either domination or submission. I hope this made some sense. Calla Firestorm

TheTXRanch -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 1:46:47 PM)
I once met for a play date with a girl who described herself as a submissive. When things got underway we quickly realized that things weren't clicking. I stopped the play to talk and found out that she thought as the "bottom or submissive" it meant that I would tie her up and tease her and pleasure her. LOL, apparantly we have very different perspectives on the previous discussions of what would happen in the scene. I've been in the lifestyle much longer and now have learned to have detailed discussions prior to meeting. At the time, I explained to her that in fact she was wanting a fantasy to come true, not to truly submit, because her only interest was her pleasure.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 3:58:54 PM)
The world would be a much better place if everyone acted a bit more selfish and self centeredly and REFUSED to go against who they were just to have "a collar." I don't think it's a gift OR an exchange, but you stay true to yourself and what you need for your own fulfilled. Despite what people want to think, yes, bottoms get put down the ladder, you get fewer cool points, people will not take you as seriously. So fucking what? Be yourself. Those who know, will know.

DesFIP -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 6:13:24 PM)
I long ago learned to translate "don't be selfish" into "do it my way instead". But the negotiation stage is where you should be insuring that your needs will both be met. It's never a good idea to discover you misunderstood once you are all tied up like a Thanksgiving turkey. Do it beforehand. Personally, selfishness is a good survival mechanism. If I'm selfish and insist on either getting what I need or going home early, I won't have a bad outcome.

Abaddon2u -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 6:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The world would be a much better place if everyone acted a bit more selfish and self centeredly and REFUSED to go against who they were just to have "a collar." I don't think it's a gift OR an exchange, but you stay true to yourself and what you need for your own fulfilled. Well said, unless all in a relationship are geting what they need..... it ain't much of a relationship. Abaddon "the only difference between myself and a mad man is that I am not mad" - Salvador Dali

DarkSteven -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 8:49:25 PM)
I had a sub once who was a selfish sub. She loved to bottom in play. But I think she wanted a deep-voiced, peremeptory Dom, and that wasn't me. She began to challenge me and top from the bottom. She once discussed a list of things that she didn't like about me and my living situation, including several that were not within my capability to change. I asked her what she wanted me to do, and she became confused. The relationship became strained and she played with another Dom at a play party. Without either of them asking my permission. In retrospect, I'm pretty sure that they had played before, behind my back. I cut her loose next day.and she went to him instantly.

Leatherist -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 9:11:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I had a sub once who was a selfish sub. She loved to bottom in play. But I think she wanted a deep-voiced, peremeptory Dom, and that wasn't me. She began to challenge me and top from the bottom. She once discussed a list of things that she didn't like about me and my living situation, including several that were not within my capability to change. I asked her what she wanted me to do, and she became confused. The relationship became strained and she played with another Dom at a play party. Without either of them asking my permission. In retrospect, I'm pretty sure that they had played before, behind my back. I cut her loose next day.and she went to him instantly. I've seen a lot of these narcissistic women playing "musical tops" in my local scene. They tend to get a reputation as users.

TreasureKY -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 9:28:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist I've seen a lot of these narcissistic women playing "musical tops" in my local scene. They tend to get a reputation as users. I wouldn't say a sub who wants a more possessive dom, has her own opinions, and obviously has other options, is necessarily a "user". I'm a little hardpressed to understand, based on what DarkSteven wrote, just why he believes this sub was selfish, either. It simply sounds like a mismatch... in fact DarkSteven even admitted as much; that he wasn't what she wanted. Of course, there's no need to wonder why you're so quick to label her as narcissistic... I think you make your negative feelings about women pretty generally known. [8\|]

Leatherist -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 9:33:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist I've seen a lot of these narcissistic women playing "musical tops" in my local scene. They tend to get a reputation as users. I wouldn't say a sub who wants a more possessive dom, has her own opinions, and obviously has other options, is necessarily a "user". I'm a little hardpressed to understand, based on what DarkSteven wrote, just why he believes this sub was selfish, either. It simply sounds like a mismatch... in fact DarkSteven even admitted as much; that he wasn't what she wanted. Of course, there's no need to wonder why you're so quick to label her as narcissistic... I think you make your negative feelings about women pretty generally known. [8\|] Has nothing to do with my feelings about them. More about the dozens of guys they use in the course of getting thier jollies.

candystripper -> RE: selfish bottom (8/20/2008 10:03:54 PM)
persephonee, I feel your pain, truly I do. quote: ..., to all of you who gave {candy} shit about being a "pleasure slave" not everyone is a masochist, she is simply reinforcing her limits and telling you up front what she likes...... .....Candy (it seems to me) just wants a Man who is strong and aggressive who will order her around and be possessive of her. She likes to play dress up and top from the bottom which is fine....some guys are into that. Not all guys are comfortable with pain-play or hardcore bondage..... .....So! in closing, for those of us who are submissives and NOT slaves or beasts (Gor). (And for those like candy who are NOT painsluts)...... *PLEASE STOP CRITISIZING AND JUDGING US!...* 2Feisty "Sexually Disconnected Doms', Post No. 136 What's worse is, I evidentially have no clue what a bottom is. I though it was a woman whose interest in D/s 'awoke' while she was having sex. Who was at most 'vanilla kinky'. And who pulls passive aggressive bullsht* that never works on real Doms, regardless of her rate of getting some werid kind of payoff from running game on vanilla guys. Consequently a sentence like: I am a bottom...and someday if I find my Dom.... makes no sense to me. It is impossible to be a bottom...seeking a Dom.* Have I conveyed what I meant to? I thought bottoms were viewed in the main as a female troll. Sighs sometimes the degree of the sliding scale of my D/s learning is just a bit to steep, and I feel like I've been left back in the 2nd grade for flunking sex ed 101. In any event, especially for a woman, to self-identify as a 'bottom' surely must attract the sense of one or more members 'hating on you' because there's no such thing as a 'bottom into D/s' just like there's no such thing as a 'submissive who isn't maso'. It takes guts and grace to persist in self-identifying in a way that provokes so many to ager because you refuse to admit 'no one like you' could exist in D/s. candystripper

Skully7000 -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 1:00:00 AM)
Perhaps its my optimistic nature, but the only time I hear someone refer to a "bottom" as a bad thing...is when they are disappointed b/c they are not looking for a bottom, they are looking for a submissive. personally when it comes to a play partner, I love playing with bottoms. but on the other hand, that is not what i'm looking for long term because I am looking for a Submissive/Slave. the thing I have noticed with myself I focus so much on the mental aspects of BDSM using the physical as Tools...sometimes its hard for me to seperate the D/s from the S/M, other times the "scene" is naturally S/M and the D/s is reserved more for day to day interaction inbetween "scenes". Cheers Skully

persephonee -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 6:32:34 AM)
Hey Skully... Thats exactly what i was thinking was happening. i dont know what to do now. i initially figured that i would just go with bottom as i had yet to submit in a relationship out of respect for the community or submissives or whatever. Perhaps i should just identify as submissive and stop overthinking. Although the reason i posted was not as a lament that i dont get dates...i think if i were literally a head on a gurney i would get at least one date a week. (Matter of fact,...well never mind..) i just get upset when i hear words like selfish and narcissistic in relation to a person who bottoms i get my widdle feewings huuut. Thats on me, as i am not being referred to personally as such. On another note...you've got mail. perse

persephonee -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 6:38:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The world would be a much better place if everyone acted a bit more selfish and self centeredly and REFUSED to go against who they were just to have "a collar." I don't think it's a gift OR an exchange, but you stay true to yourself and what you need for your own fulfilled. Despite what people want to think, yes, bottoms get put down the ladder, you get fewer cool points, people will not take you as seriously. So fucking what? Be yourself. Those who know, will know. i've said it before and i'll say it again. i adore LA.

DarkSteven -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 6:42:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY I wouldn't say a sub who wants a more possessive dom, has her own opinions, and obviously has other options, is necessarily a "user". I'm a little hardpressed to understand, based on what DarkSteven wrote, just why he believes this sub was selfish, either. It simply sounds like a mismatch... in fact DarkSteven even admitted as much; that he wasn't what she wanted. Okay, let me try again. It was about HER. Not her Dom, not the relationship, but HER. When she found another Dom she preferred, she just went to him. No discussion. In my mind, a submissive values the relationship she holds with a Dom. In this case, she did not value it at all - it was a means of getting her needs met till another Dom came along. That's why I considered her selfish. She was a sub because she it made her wet to think about submitting, not because she truly had a desire to please others.

mistoferin -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 6:43:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee i just get upset when i hear words like selfish and narcissistic in relation to a person who bottoms i get my widdle feewings huuut. Don't let that hurt your feelings because in reality there is a LOT of room for selfishness in the bottoming equation. When I have bottomed I am completely selfish in it. Bottoming doesn't always indicate a relationship or a person who only likes to give up control in the bedroom. It can also indicate the person taking the bottom role in a scene. There is NO submission in that. I spent a couple years single after my ex Master and I split. To satisfy my own need for play I regularly bottomed to a select few dominant friends. But make no mistake about it, I wasn't submitting to them....not even a little. I was there to fill my own personal agenda....to have MY need for play fulfilled. Of course, that was made very clear to them....but not one of them was expecting anything that resembled submission from me either. They knew that I was there for my own purposes. Granted, they were there for theirs also so in that respect we came to a mutually fulfilling understanding....but was it me being selfish? Oh hell yeah!

persephonee -> RE: selfish bottom (8/21/2008 7:11:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee i just get upset when i hear words like selfish and narcissistic in relation to a person who bottoms i get my widdle feewings huuut. Don't let that hurt your feelings because in reality there is a LOT of room for selfishness in the bottoming equation. When I have bottomed I am completely selfish in it. Bottoming doesn't always indicate a relationship or a person who only likes to give up control in the bedroom. It can also indicate the person taking the bottom role in a scene. There is NO submission in that. I spent a couple years single after my ex Master and I split. To satisfy my own need for play I regularly bottomed to a select few dominant friends. But make no mistake about it, I wasn't submitting to them....not even a little. I was there to fill my own personal agenda....to have MY need for play fulfilled. Of course, that was made very clear to them....but not one of them was expecting anything that resembled submission from me either. They knew that I was there for my own purposes. Granted, they were there for theirs also so in that respect we came to a mutually fulfilling understanding....but was it me being selfish? Oh hell yeah! mistoferin~ Thank you for saying that better than i ever could. While im single i will play. This in no way should color anyone's opinion of how well or whatever i could submit in a relationship. And, frankly, the people i scene with publicly are friends in day to day life, so i am not wandering around the dungeon presenting my ass to just anyone with a bullskin flogger and an attitude...altho....~WEG~ IDK...i do in my heart wish to be taken seriously. i take WIITWD very seriously and want nothing more than to find one person to focus on. Of course, he'd have to be willing to "grandfather in" at least 2 of my playpartners once in a while for old times sake.( i am only half kidding). i think im going to at least add one sentence to my profile. i have tried to revamp that thing about one hundred times but when i read what i wrote i agree too much.

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