Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (Full Version)

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mistoferin -> Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 8:35:39 AM)

Often I hear a submissive who says "He told me I'm not submissive" and that is followed by cries of "He's not a real dom....run away". (I'm using the male to female example here because it is what I see most often, not because I think it's exclusive that way so please feel free to adapt it to your own situation.) While I agree that in many instances the "you're not a submissive, etc.) is thrown out there by the clueless who are simply trying to use it as a way to coerce someone into doing what they want, I don't believe that it is always the case. Sometimes they say it because you're really not.

I'm just as guilty as the next when it comes to jumping to that conclusion. I admit that when I hear it, coming from the submissive persuasion, I do the eyeroll thing. But....what if it is said by someone whose intentions are to help someone who is new and trying to find their way? What if the person really is more of a bottom who seems far more interested in the kink side....and just doesn't know the difference...or that it's perfectly ok to be that and claim that? What if it is said by someone whose intent is not to coerce or belittle....but to educate and help the person find their way....or just to present options that the "new" person may not even be aware of?

Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?



missturbation -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 8:43:35 AM)

quote:

Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?

Certainly.
 
quote:

But....what if it is said by someone whose intentions are to help someone who is new and trying to find their way? What if the person really is more of a bottom who seems far more interested in the kink side....and just doesn't know the difference...

Unfortunately this could boil down to the old defintion factors. What one person calls a sub, some would call a bottom etc etc etc.





RavenMuse -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 8:43:37 AM)

I don't think there can be where the accusation is directed at the person..... and usualy as a responce to them not doing or agreeing to something or other. The non-offencive and I would consider most correct responce would be "We are not compatable"... not "you are not submissive"

There are a couple of people who threw that at My girl.... and toward them, sure she wasn't submissive... that didn't mean she ISN'T a submissive just not submissive to them. With the right chemistry and Dynamic she is a lovely slave... for Me.

Just because the chemistry isn't right between Me and a particular girl maybe mean she isn't submissive to Me, that doesn't mean she isn't a lovely submissive girl when she finds the right person and gives herself fully.



Missokyst -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:05:26 AM)

Ok... I have a problem with strangers helping someone they don't know, find their way.  Normally we see those cries of YOU ARE NOT A REAL SUB!!, or, "He is a player not a real DOM!" from posts that suggest the two people have just casually chatted.
In most of those cases I roll my eyes back.  But lets say that they honestly want to help them find their way..
I am not a real sub. 
At least I am not a sub for guys who cannot inspire it from me.  I have happily submitted for years to men with whom I feel that connection.
But for the average guy, especially if I don't know him in person?  LOL the though I could be real in any way to him is ludicrous.
If you want to educate them and help them find their way, point out a book or two.  Sometimes when I talk to someone I say, bottoming is fine.  It might help you see if this stuff is for you.  But submitting is a lot of work.  And just like all work, sometimes you get a good boss, sometimes you get a clueless one, but you always have the right to seek another company.
Real may mean something as easy as a good fit.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
But....what if it is said by someone whose intentions are to help someone who is new and trying to find their way? What if the person really is more of a bottom who seems far more interested in the kink side....and just doesn't know the difference...or that it's perfectly ok to be that and claim that? What if it is said by someone whose intent is not to coerce or belittle....but to educate and help the person find their way....or just to present options that the "new" person may not even be aware of?




heartfeltsub -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:10:01 AM)

There is a friend of mine who has been told by a number of well-meaning people who have combined years of experience in the lifestyle that she is a bottom. she continues to think of herself and call herself a slave because of the perceived status associated with that term. She is much more fulfilled when she is bottoming than when she tries to be a "slave". i don't know as it is possible, but if the status of certain "roles" or positions were not seen as different, maybe more people would find the role that they really are instead of trying to be something that they are not.

heartfelt



mistoferin -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:13:13 AM)

Hypothetical situation:

Woman finds Collarme and contacts a dominant.

W-"Hi, I'm looking for a dominant because I'm submissive"

M-"What was it that made you come to the conclusion you are submissive"

W-"I like kinky sex and getting spanked and stuff"

M-"Ok, is that the full extent of it? Do you enjoy being in a dynamic where your goal is to please your partner?"

W-"You mean like give him blow jobs and stuff? Well, sometimes...when I feel like it."

M-"No, I mean is your goal to please your partner in whatever ways he finds pleasing, so long as it stays within your pre-discussed limits of course. Say one of the things that the dominant finds pleasing is coming home to a clean house?"

W-"Oh no, screw that....I don't want to be a slave. I just want someone to spank me and stuff....when I want them to...and how I want them to."

M-"Then I might suggest that maybe "submissive" is not the label that defines you best. I would suggest that you are a bottom and that maybe you would have more luck searching for a Top that doesn't expect submission on a full time basis."

W-"Are you telling me I'm not a real submissive...screw you, you're a poser!"



suhlut -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:15:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

I don't think there can be where the accusation is directed at the person..... and usualy as a responce to them not doing or agreeing to something or other. The non-offencive and I would consider most correct responce would be "We are not compatable"... not "you are not submissive"

There are a couple of people who threw that at My girl.... and toward them, sure she wasn't submissive... that didn't mean she ISN'T a submissive just not submissive to them. With the right chemistry and Dynamic she is a lovely slave... for Me.

Just because the chemistry isn't right between Me and a particular girl maybe mean she isn't submissive to Me, that doesn't mean she isn't a lovely submissive girl when she finds the right person and gives herself fully.



Great responce! 

and aside from that, i tend to like reminding people that they may have forgotten that there is not set list of BDSM rules, no handbook.

i mean really, just how Dominant would someone be, if He/She was handed a list of rules and told they MUST adhere to it without fail?

Isn't it instead Dominant, to take the time, to read, study, watch how others conduct their relationships, and then just simply spend time exploring His/Her own mind and decide exactly what to impliment, what to reject, and mix in a huge dash of His/Her own ideas to create His/Her own brand of what BDSM means to Him/Her? i think so!

As for the submissive/slave part of the equation, i also think that they should read, study, watch others, and explore their own minds, to decide exactly the type of Dom/me that would be a match.

From there it would be ideal that both Dom/mes and subs/slaves look only for a partner that matches/fits. Doing so, would mean lots less pain, time wasted, whatever.





WaywardFilly -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:16:55 AM)

There are many characteristics that make a connection possible.For instance I refuse to submit to someone who I know has made his life through one lie after another.I have no need to submit to a person who does not show integrity.So because I had a long term relationship with a person like this,I have heard others say that I am not submissive.Yet, prior to that,I had been in relationships in which my whole self was given over to the Dom.As another here has already pointed out, a line I have used often"I may be a submissive, But I am not YOUR submissive"



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:17:15 AM)

I have a friend in NY who think she is submissive becasue everything she has read about the idea of giving herself so someone sounds wildly romantic to her. However, every time she actually gets herself into the position where it could be made a reality, she ruffles at being given orders and cant happily follow soeone elses directions. When I told her SHE is not submissive, it was true. She doesnt even have the reallife interest in playing as a bottom. Fantasywise, she loves the idea, but in her reality the expression of the control rubs her the wrong way.
I am sure there are other newcomers who have the same problem. They are trying to make themselves into porn-slaves. They have no actual interest in the things necessary to submit, with or without the right chemistry. They think they might, and they want the things they see in the movies without the attachment in everything else.

DV



mistoferin -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:18:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

There is a friend of mine who has been told by a number of well-meaning people who have combined years of experience in the lifestyle that she is a bottom. she continues to think of herself and call herself a slave because of the perceived status associated with that term.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure why someone would cling to a label that didn't fit them and risk always ending up in relationships that are not a good fit for them because of it....just because of the "status" associated with it. I don't really understand that status. Why do so many perceive that any one term is "better" than another? I think people would be a lot happier if they would just be true to who they are.



Lockit -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:26:44 AM)

I think it is all in how something is said and then heard.  I have had it said that I wasn't a dominant because I was too nice or didn't like certain kink activities.  Hell, I was told I was too old to be a domme!  You hear all kinds of things around here. lol

Yet, there was a man I met here that presented as a submissive.  I saw him as a brat or sam but it didn't matter to me. I took the time to get to know him and we talked a lot in trying to understand one another.  What we concluded was that he was a dominant personality who loved pain.  He didn't want to submit to a woman, but did want a woman to take control in the bedroom and give him the pain he desired.  At one point I had to tell him that I didn't think he was submissive and leaned more toward being a switch and that opened the doors of communication into other area's where he was able to see where he really wanted to be.  Had I rushed to saying 'you are not a submissive' he might have been offended and taken more attitude than he already had simply because he was confused.

But in general, I think that people say these things because they are not getting what they want from someone and they mean it as an attack.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:27:40 AM)

Erin is so smart.  [:D]



BitaTruble -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:28:41 AM)

Hypothetical situation #1:

Woman finds Collarme and contacts a dominant.

W-"Hi, I'm looking for a dominant because I'm submissive"

M-"What was it that made you come to the conclusion you are submissive"

W-"I like kinky sex and getting spanked and stuff"

M-"Ok, is that the full extent of it? Do you enjoy being in a dynamic where your goal is to please your partner?"

W-"You mean like give him blow jobs and stuff? Well, sometimes...when I feel like it."

M-"Ah, well, I'm looking for someone who gives blow jobs and stuff when I feel like it."

W-"Oh. Okay. Thanks anyway."

Hypothetical Situation #2

W-"Hi, I'm looking for a dominant because I'm submissive"

M-"What was it that made you come to the conclusion you are submissive"

W-"I like kinky sex and getting spanked and stuff"

M-"Cool. That works for me!"

It's rarely about the label. It's about the conversation which takes place after the label is announced. Like Raven, to me it's about compatibility and being on the same page even if that page isn't in anyone else's book .. except for one other person.





RavenMuse -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:30:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Hypothetical situation:

Woman finds Collarme and contacts a dominant.

W-"Hi, I'm looking for a dominant because I'm submissive"

M-"What was it that made you come to the conclusion you are submissive"

W-"I like kinky sex and getting spanked and stuff"



Lets re-run that With Me being the Dominant in question....

Assuming I'd bothered to reply to the opening mail at all given it is a one liner. The second reply would be as far as it would get.

D- "I suggest in future you read the profile before mailing a Dom/Master. If you think that is all it is about I also suggest you do some reading on what a submissive is. Either way, We are NOT compatable. Good luck in your search"

Bock,delete, ignore

My assumption at that stage is she is a clueless newbie and doesn't know what a submissive actualy is... note the assumption isn't that she isn't and never will be a submissive. If she learns, is drawn and meets the right person then in time she MAY be.

There is also a difference in saying "I don't see that person as submissive"... and making the catagorical statement that "she isn't a submissive"... people can call themself whatever label they choose, that doesn't mean I will see them that way which shouldn't be an issue unless they are seeking validation from Me... which ain't going to happen.



RavenMuse -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:35:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It's rarely about the label. It's about the conversation which takes place after the label is announced. Like Raven, to me it's about compatibility and being on the same page even if that page isn't in anyone else's book .. except for one other person.


Absolutely. All the lable does is hopefully get people into roughly the same ballpark... in the situation above, finding that We ain't even on the same continent after the initial labels, there is no point clarifying further as it is already clear that We are not compatable.



masterforRT -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:36:05 AM)

Let's get real!

LOTS of  'subs' top from the bottom.....and I personally want no part of the ones who do.

I guess that makes me a poor Dom in many's eyes here....



Bstardsbitch -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:37:32 AM)

I get told all the time I'm not a submissive/slave.....dunno why [;)]



NuevaVida -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:42:49 AM)

I think sometimes people are just looking for things to get offended about.  If you're comfortable in your own skin, then why get upset over what a relative stranger speculates?  Often times people hold up their version of a mirror in front of us.  We then have the option of how we want to respond - get offended?  be amused?  dismiss it?  take a look-see in the event we might learn something new about ourselves?

Some people are well meaning in what they say to others, and some are not.  The beauty of it is, we get to decide how to process it.  When I was lumped in with the rest of you guppies the other day (heh), I figured, what the hell, maybe in someone else's eyes I am a guppy, and what's so bad about that? Guppies are cute, after all, and they multiply like...well, like guppies...and any activity which gets the male stuff into the female stuff can't be all bad, ya know?  [8D]

It is my opinion that when people are comfortable with themselves, judgment statements aren't offensive, unless of course they're holding the other person's opinion above their own.  If people aren't sure of themselves, they might indeed be bothered by such judgment statements, but they don't have to be.  If you recognize that people see the world from their own viewing point (as opposed to point of view), they're only seeing you from one angle - their own.  And that's not something to be taken personally.



FlamingRedhead -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:43:52 AM)

I've been accused of not being submissive by someone who wasn't getting his way.  There are some people who don't understand resistance and expect submission to come easily.  pppfffftttt  What-ever!  *rme*  I think it's hilarious that Daddy sees me as slave material whereas others have seen me as barely submissive.
 
I think if you know someone well enough you can make suggestions, but keep in mind that unsolicited advice will usually result in the person you're trying to help becoming defensive....think "A Few Good Men"......
 
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!



RavenMuse -> RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't (8/19/2008 9:44:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bstardsbitch

I get told all the time I'm not a submissive/slave.....dunno why [;)]


Let Me guess.... they can't handle a feisty girl who isn't in submission to them and that ruffles their dimly feathers. The only person (Other than yourself) who's opinion counts is your Master... and I KNOW He doesn't have a problem with you... nothing He can't correct anyhow [:D]



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