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China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 3:44:15 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		If you are watching NBC's coverage, you might get the idea that liberty and freedom are on the rise in China... guess again.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/18/asia/protest.php
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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 4:53:28 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		This just in!  Scientists report that water is still wet.
Back to you in the newsroom.

I don't think anyone is really fooled by the olympic spirit into believing things are going to drastically change in China any time soon.  There's a lot of wishful thinking going on, but not enough to make people eschew reality.

~stef


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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 4:56:12 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Haven't you seen American police baton charging protestors, haven't you seen the stats for how many blacks are incarcerated and executed compared to whites in America? Anyone can make a case out for the US and the west not being free.

The average Chinese person has as much freedom as the average American, the problem comes when you want to overthrow the system. The US has two parties, China has one but those two US parties are no broader in their views than the Chinese communist party. Support a party that wants to overthrow the system in America and then come back and tell me America is free. I doubt I will hear from you because you will be a member of a chain gang.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 5:16:31 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

If you are watching NBC's coverage, you might get the idea that liberty and freedom are on the rise in China... guess again.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/18/asia/protest.php

Reports about repression, forced relocations, etc. et al. were present for weeks before the Olympics even started.

thornhappy

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 5:30:17 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		That's ridiculous. The Independent Party, the Communist party, etcetera etcetera etcetera all have absolute freedom in the United States. Everyone incarcerated or on death row have or have had public jury trials and they and their families enjoy freedom of the press, freedom of association, free speech...

In China, not so much. Even their Internet is filtered!


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Haven't you seen American police baton charging protestors, haven't you seen the stats for how many blacks are incarcerated and executed compared to whites in America? Anyone can make a case out for the US and the west not being free.

The average Chinese person has as much freedom as the average American, the problem comes when you want to overthrow the system. The US has two parties, China has one but those two US parties are no broader in their views than the Chinese communist party. Support a party that wants to overthrow the system in America and then come back and tell me America is free. I doubt I will hear from you because you will be a member of a chain gang.


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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 5:41:13 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Sanity, I doubt you have ever been to China but I'm not saying China is free, I'm saying the westerners aren't as free as they like to think they are. The way to prove my point is to peacefully support an organisation that wants to overthrow the establishment, I can promise you, you won't be free for long.

As Chomsky pointed out, "Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.” and  “The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control / ''indoctrination',' we might say / exercised through the mass media.”

How right the man is and you are living proof.

Sanity, we make compromises with the powers that be to exist from day to day, but don't be fooled into thinking they are freedoms.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/18/2008 5:45:47 PM >

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 5:47:26 PM   
Smith117


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Status: offline 		"And now we go to Ollie Williams for the punishment forecast, Ollie."

"He gonna get it!!!!"

"Thanks Ollie.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 5:57:19 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Say I am subject to propaganda. I'll give you that point. Even though I have access to every foreign media outlet there is and it's absolute rubbish, let's pretend that what you said is true.

HMMM, here I am talking to you, the ONE, bringer of divine knowledge of the one true way.  (Kidding here - we all know that's Jr. Senator Obama).

Heyyyyy, what do you know - I have every opportunity to be reprogrammed!

The Chinese cannot get on the Internet and communicate freely.

See a difference yet?

I doubt it, I doubt you ever will, since you refuse to address the points I made earlier... you'll just keep moving the goal posts, won't you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Sanity, I doubt you have ever been to China but I'm not saying China is free, I'm saying the westerners aren't as free as they like to think they are. The way to prove my point is to peacefully support an organisation that wants to overthrow the establishment, I can promise you, you won't be free for long.

As Chomsky pointed out, "Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.” and  “The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control / ''indoctrination',' we might say / exercised through the mass media.”

How right the man is and you are living proof.

Sanity, we make compromises with the powers that be to exist from day to day, but don't be fooled into thinking they are freedoms.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/18/2008 6:19:35 PM >

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 6:49:04 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


As Chomsky pointed out...


Ahhh.. Chairman Chomsky... well if he says so.........

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/18/2008 7:22:26 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		(doing my best Gilbert Godfried impersonation) : "Oh! What a surprise! I am gonna have a heart attack, and DIE from that surprise! The chinese are putting down protests by their own people!

Let me know when they start running students over with tanks... again... then we'll know it's serious.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 3:28:07 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Say I am subject to propaganda. I'll give you that point. Even though I have access to every foreign media outlet there is and it's absolute rubbish, let's pretend that what you said is true.

HMMM, here I am talking to you, the ONE, bringer of divine knowledge of the one true way.  (Kidding here - we all know that's Jr. Senator Obama).

Heyyyyy, what do you know - I have every opportunity to be reprogrammed!

The Chinese cannot get on the Internet and communicate freely.

See a difference yet?

I doubt it, I doubt you ever will, since you refuse to address the points I made earlier... you'll just keep moving the goal posts, won't you.



I'll give western establishments are smarter than the Chinese government, they provide bread and circuses and their manipulation of their populations are more subtle. When you see obvious censorship you know you aren't free, when you are subject to psychological manipulation, its easy to fool yourself into thinking you are free. The average American still has to get up every morning and go to work for somebody else or starve because 1% of Americans have 40% of all wealth, 20% have another 50% of all wealth and the bottom 80% of Americans have to make do with 8.8% of the wealth. The average day of the average American will not be unlike the average day of the average Chinese person. So much for your freedom, you can read what you like but can't do what you like, any more than most Chinese.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 4:10:31 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		As I predicted earlier, you've once again moved the goal posts.

Regarding your new argument, it's odd that you would declare that wealth equals freedom, especially when the Chinese people are becoming wealthier after the government there began introducing economic reforms in 1978 that are moving China away from Socialism towards a more Capitalist society.

It's as though you're saying that Capitalism equals freedom, and I wouldn't expect that from you. Not at all...




< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/19/2008 4:27:18 AM >

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 4:27:01 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

As I predicted earlier, you've once again moved the goal posts.



perhaps the reason they keep moving the goal posts, is because that is all they learned from the Clinton's this year

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 4:40:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

As I predicted earlier, you've once again moved the goal posts.


It's as though you're saying that Capitalism equals freedom, and I wouldn't expect that from you. Not at all...



Rubbish. Having to work to earn enough money to live on is a form of social control, it was even recognized as such in the middleages, just after the black death when labour was short and land was plentiful. Merchants used to complain about the peasants not consuming and adding to the wealth of society (their wealth in other words) but consuming to their needs. The peasants were beyond the control of the establishment.

In modern societies it is very difficult to escape from the social control of the state, everyone needs to eat, a roof over ones head and most need clothes because of the climate they live in. Money gives you some degree of freedom from the state but you still have to conform. You could reprogramme yourself, so can Chinese people. What you can't do is realistically threaten the establishment without provoking its wrath. Society is run by consensus, most people consent not to rock the boat as long as they have enough material wealth, which means they are happy to see the rich get richer and the poor stuck in poverty as long as its not them. Americans (and other westerners) don't give a shit about what their government does as long as they are bought off. That's as far as western freedom goes.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/19/2008 4:48:54 AM >

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 4:46:32 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		LMAO

Now I can't get his dam voice out of my head

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 5:10:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Even Alexander Solzhenitsyn noted that western freedom is decadent and a fool's freedom, with little to do with freedom at all.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 5:47:13 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I think one of the greatest mistakes is to compare China to the US. They have 6000 years of law. They do not have anywhere near our diversity and won't because they don't want it. I remember a lecture that was given and if I remember correctly, one major difference is that a cop can issue a ticket on the street and the recipient can be sent to a work camp or jail and not once get to plead the case. 

Anglo-Chinese relationships have a rocky history and I doubt very seriously that China will allow for outside influence ever again.

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 5:57:17 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
First solve the arguments within your own mind, then maybe we can have a debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Rubbish. Having to work to earn enough money to live on is a form of social control, it was even recognized as such in the middleages, just after the black death when labour was short and land was plentiful. Merchants used to complain about the peasants not consuming and adding to the wealth of society (their wealth in other words) but consuming to their needs. The peasants were beyond the control of the establishment.

In modern societies it is very difficult to escape from the social control of the state, everyone needs to eat, a roof over ones head and most need clothes because of the climate they live in. Money gives you some degree of freedom from the state but you still have to conform. You could reprogramme yourself, so can Chinese people. What you can't do is realistically threaten the establishment without provoking its wrath. Society is run by consensus, most people consent not to rock the boat as long as they have enough material wealth, which means they are happy to see the rich get richer and the poor stuck in poverty as long as its not them. Americans (and other westerners) don't give a shit about what their government does as long as they are bought off. That's as far as western freedom goes.


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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 6:38:28 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		China's human rights record is less than perfect, and people are just starting to notice? How long have we been trading with China again ? And why didn't we boycott the Olympics, if we disapprove of their methods?

It's funny how people's indignation gets suddenly mobilised because of the news outlets telling them to  .

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RE: China stifles protest during Olympics - 8/19/2008 7:09:23 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Who are you referring to? People have been paying attention to all the atrocities in China for a very long time. Who doesn't remember Tiannamon square...

We should have boycotted the Olympics this year, that's the whole point.

Your remark about news outlets telling us to get mobilized seems a bit odd. Do claim that you never react to news articles?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

China's human rights record is less than perfect, and people are just starting to notice? How long have we been trading with China again ? And why didn't we boycott the Olympics, if we disapprove of their methods?

It's funny how people's indignation gets suddenly mobilised because of the news outlets telling them to  .


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