Religion, Mental Health and Kink

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IvyMorgan -> Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 4:47:16 PM)
I know, I know, those are our two favourite "and Kink" topics. But go with me here... This could also be called "Why I love my psychiatrist". I saw him today, he was Doctor appointment number 2 of 4. I still had some oomph in me when I saw him. We talked about a lot of things, my meds, my boobs, and then he asked me how I was getting on at the Jasmine Centre. He means FDL (my shiny new therapuetic community that I get to start in a couple of weeks). And so began a discussion about my pathology. About my personalities. About how I came to be the fucked up little girl in his office in the first place. I love him because he acknowledges, "you need a therapist who is more intelligent than you", because he can explain when I'm almost sure other people have tried to explain, but without it sounding condescending, or dismissive, or patronising, because, in amongst acknowledging being suicidal, we have a giggle. This is the first psych I've ever had who's been any good. You know how good he is when he starts referencing Freud and he's still making sense. He likened me a little to Anna O, so I've got some homework to do later. But, here's the kicker, he suggested a possibility that all of my problems, all of my problems, are related to sex. I presented at the age of 13 with physical symptoms of a sexual nature. With no obvious cause. They persisted and got worse during my teens, until, in my late teens I was on heavy narcotics to be able to walk or move at all. I wrote exams whilst high, stoned, and requesting medical attention. I had a religious, conservative up bringing. Very middle England. Very "normal". I went to church, I was confirmed, I sang in the choir. I was the one who did all the prayers in assembly at school. I was the one who knew the obscure hymn verses. I actually listened during sermons. Sermons which preached tolerance and love as a veiled condescension for a holier than thou attitude regarding those who were "different", the sick, the young, the gays, the poor... I knew, about the age of 12, I wasn't straight. I learnt the word "gay" watching that episode of Ellen. But, I loved Ellen way before then. I knew, for sure, I was either kinky or completely fucked in the head, about the age of 14 when I first started thinking about having sex as something I wanted. Before then, I'd been thinking about sex, but it was all abusive. I'd written about sex, but it was all abusive. So, there I am, a young, sick, teen, in church listening to how evil I am. I'm pretty darned smart, so I understand the hypocrisy and condesention. That's what drove me from my first church to find "true" Christians, ones who actually lived what they preached and were honest about it. I didn't fit in there either, what with being gay and all. I was politely asked to have no contact with the young people of a congregation on account of being a non practicing homosexual. I come home and it's not really any better. The idea of talking about sex, as anything other than either a bioligial process, something other people do which shouldn't be done, or something married couples do in missionary position, just wasn't ever countenanced. And that third option, highly unlikely to be mentioned even then. I was sexualised at a young age. I was abused, and assaulted, and raped. My mother still thinks I'm lying when I say these things. She will never accept me. I wasn't straight, I was kinky, I was trying to find a way to express my sexuality, and my environment, for many reasons, did not give me such a way. And so, I began to dissociate. And so I have a split personality. Parts of myself I didn't know how to deal with. Parts of myself that weren't acceptable. They got split off, annexed, and walls were made to mean I didn't have to deal with them. I could go on being perfect middle England daughter. Which is fine until you have your third mental break down at the age of 22. Though that might have been the 4th one, it's hard to tell. My "supression" manifested itself as physical symptoms, unknown crippling pain, a problem with drugs, a problem with self harm, a highly focused work ethic, and socially distancing myself from my peers (also caused by bullying, so, let's not just blame the sex for that one). I'll get "better" when I fully accept, not just on an intellectual level but on a "belief" level, that it's okay for me to be all of the many things that I am. It's okay to like girls - that way, it's okay to want to beat people til they scream and pass out, it's okay to want to turn them into obedient little borg types, it's okay to want to be hurt, it's okay to like to have sex, it's okay to have sex, it's okay to be turned on by rope, it's okay to be turned on by all the sick, twisted and depraved things that turn me on, it's all okay. It's okay that I was raped, it's okay that I was assaulted, it's okay that I wa abused. These are things that happened but not things that define me. I know, for a fact, my weight problem started as a result of being raped. I wanted to be unattractive so it wouldn't happen again, so I spent a summer while I was ten secretly binge eating on all the calories I could get my hands on. I'm not sure if this explains everything, but it explains a whole lot more than was explained before. It doesn't account for being bipolar, it doesn't account for the endochrine stuff, but who said I couldn't have messed up genetics as well as all the other stuff. This is certainly a better explaination that anything else that's been suggested, and I could certainly get behind this one, it has that ring of truth to it that few things do. It does throw a spanner in the therapeutic community works though, they class S&M, without even thinking about it, as self harm, and self harm is a behaviour that results in being placed on review, and persistant self harm leads to discharge. How am I supposed to accept a part of me as ok, when those who are helping me to accept parts of me as ok think it's wrong? (And this is before we get to my mother thinking it "wrong" "sick" "depraved" "abusive" "killing myself" and just not something a daughter of hers should be doing.) Much to think about tonight. Many, many thoughts... Do you have any? Thoughts I mean.

StrongSpirit -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:00:05 PM)
Sometimes I think China is right, you should have to get a license to have a child. Have you ever read Lois McMaster Bujold's books? You might sympathize with the character Mark Vorkosigan, in the book "Mirror Dance"

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:03:37 PM)
Wow, Ivy ... I have so many thoughts after reading your post. First, I'm so glad you found a doc you clicked with. I think it's fantastic that he has you thinking, engaged and wanting to do homework to discuss the next time and to help you understand yourself. You made me smile when you mentioned Ellen. I adore her, and at the time "that" show aired, I knew it was important, but not being gay, wasn't aware just how important it was until I hear stories like yours. I remember watching one of Ellen's stand-up acts on HBO where a girl in the audience expressed exactly what you did here, and everyone wound up crying when Ellen gave her a huge hug ... just made me love her more. [:)] I want to smack your mom for not believing you and believing in you. Well, smack may be harsh, but honestly - what would wake her up to let her know that her daughter, whom I'm sure she loves, needs her to accept her above all else. Hugs to you...

DarkSteven -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:05:35 PM)
This may surprise you, but your story is not all that unique. Many unfortunates were abused as children, And many, many of them grow up to crave BDSM. It's revisiting the scenes of childhood, but in a safe, loving environment with someone who cares about you. Very healing. Unfortunately, the mental health community refuses to differentiate between loving discipline and consensual BDSM, and abuse. Just one of several reasons that I don't think much of the community. That's as ridiculous as confusing rape with making love - the same physical act but the emotions are much different. Ivy, I'm sorry your mother has closed off your childhood reality. When you find someone in your life who cares about you and is willing to give you both the physical sensations you need and the caring you missed out on, you'll be on the path to healing.

sujuguete -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:13:02 PM)
My apologies for chopping apart your post, but certain parts hit home with me, and I'm too ADD to try to tackle the whole thing. . . quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan I wasn't straight, I was kinky, I was trying to find a way to express my sexuality, and my environment, for many reasons, did not give me such a way. And so, I began to dissociate. And so I have a split personality. Parts of myself I didn't know how to deal with. Parts of myself that weren't acceptable. They got split off, annexed, and walls were made to mean I didn't have to deal with them. I've never heard it explained that way before, but gosh darn it, it makes sense! When you are told that who you are (what you like) is "wrong," why not create another You that is "right" in the eyes of society and those who matter to you? I think all of us do this to some degree, presenting one face to society at large and another face in situations where we can let our hair down. It makes sense to me that it would be more pronounced in some people, to the extent where the two "faces" actually become distinct personalities if the forces of the surroundings make it necessary to completely dissociate from one or the other personality. quote: I'll get "better" when I fully accept, not just on an intellectual level but on a "belief" level, that it's okay for me to be all of the many things that I am. It's okay to like girls - that way, it's okay to want to beat people til they scream and pass out, it's okay to want to turn them into obedient little borg types, it's okay to want to be hurt, it's okay to like to have sex, it's okay to have sex, it's okay to be turned on by rope, it's okay to be turned on by all the sick, twisted and depraved things that turn me on, it's all okay. That's why I was so relieved to find the BDSM community, and know that I wasn't "sick" after all for enjoying being beaten and used. That, or there were plenty of other people with my same "sickness." Either way, knowing I am accepted for who and what I am, and accepting it myself, has made a huge difference in my life. I hope you can really, truly accept it, too. quote: It's okay that I was raped, it's okay that I was assaulted, it's okay that I wa abused. These are things that happened but not things that define me. Well, I don't think it was OKAY that you were raped and assaulted and abused. I don't think it is ever okay if it is not consensual. But you are right that those things do not define you. And it is okay to let go of the past and move on. quote: It does throw a spanner in the therapeutic community works though, they class S&M, without even thinking about it, as self harm, and self harm is a behaviour that results in being placed on review, and persistant self harm leads to discharge. How am I supposed to accept a part of me as ok, when those who are helping me to accept parts of me as ok think it's wrong? (And this is before we get to my mother thinking it "wrong" "sick" "depraved" "abusive" "killing myself" and just not something a daughter of hers should be doing.) I hear you. This is the main reason I haven't got a therapist right now. Since I have finally accepted myself with all my kinky traits, I don't need someone undermining my new-found self confidence by telling me I'm wrong and sick, and trying to convince me to change or hide my desires. quote: Sermons which preached tolerance and love as a veiled condescension for a holier than thou attitude regarding those who were "different", the sick, the young, the gays, the poor... I was just talking to my son the other day about religion and those who are "different." He had just broken up with his girlfriend because she was homophobic. I sympathized with him and reminded him that Jesus hung out with the dregs of society when He was here before (the prostitutes and tax collectors). If He were here today, I think He would be hanging out with the AIDS victims (and the tax collectors). [;)] Just my two cents. . .

wisteriaV -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:21:17 PM)
Lets make it simple. We are all wonderfully unique in our kinks and in our own skin we are only mentally ill when it goes against the society norms in which we live in in general. D/s and BDSM are a society unto themselves thus we are not mentally ill everyone else is! [:D]

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:28:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit Sometimes I think China is right, you should have to get a license to have a child. Have you ever read Lois McMaster Bujold's books? You might sympathize with the character Mark Vorkosigan, in the book "Mirror Dance" Consider that added to my Amazon Wishlist. smiles It sounds a lot like taking responsibility for things other people who look like you, do. Which is very familiar. I have to eat broccoli now squicks

Maxwell67 -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:28:19 PM)
Went with you, there.. wow.. That is a harsh story and though I have read some pretty awful things about peoples upbringing here, I felt I should say something here. I do not know what you need to do in order for you accept yourself. Maybe the fact you have no choice will do it? You really don't have a choice. You are stuck with you. Adapt to that. Certainly not accepting that you in all your unique freakiness are who you are has not helped you. All of you is ok. You just have to accept that (No, other people are not going to see it that way.. screw them). You may need to deal with people who only want to accept parts of you in your life, but that does not mean you must change to please them. Just be you and let the chips fall where they may. BUT.. Take responsibility for who you are. Not blame.. Responsibility... Claim your life. You know who you are now and what you have to work with, so work with it. There have been lots of sadistic lesbian domminas who got really screwed in the happy childhood department and wen't on to live successful and joy filled lives. There is no special condition you have to fulfill before you can join thier ranks.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:33:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220 You made me smile when you mentioned Ellen. I adore her, and at the time "that" show aired, I knew it was important, but not being gay, wasn't aware just how important it was until I hear stories like yours. I remember watching one of Ellen's stand-up acts on HBO where a girl in the audience expressed exactly what you did here, and everyone wound up crying when Ellen gave her a huge hug ... just made me love her more. [:)] Epcot have Ellen on a big screen. I was in a happy place when we went there. But, yes, the airing of that episode in the UK had Channel 4 (the station that showed Ellen) throwing a big pride-like party. They had this hour long documentary before hand, which I watched with interest and lots of epiphany eureka moments, and then fell asleep before being able to watch the actual episode. School night, young girl, late night... It wasn't until a couple of years ago I got to see the episode propper. Still worth the wait though. quote: I want to smack your mom for not believing you and believing in you. Well, smack may be harsh, but honestly - what would wake her up to let her know that her daughter, whom I'm sure she loves, needs her to accept her above all else. Hugs to you... I want to introduce her to my collection of crops sometimes. If she made an effort to understand, instead of saying she wants to meet me half way as long as I do all the work and join her where she is in perfect-land, I'd be more... understanding? But she doesn't, and she won't, and I learned a long times ago that nothing will change her. Hence I am honing my emotional blackmail skills, and trying to grow enough of a backbone to start using them without baulking.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:37:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven This may surprise you, but your story is not all that unique. I did not intend for my post to paint me as "unique" or even thinking myself such. It is just that often when a thread comes up about BDSM and mental illness, everyone is very quick to jump on the "BDSM is not a mental illness" and "I'm not mentally ill" band wagon, and actually sitting here and admitting that being kinky may have contributed directly to my illness, is not something I've seen much talked about before. quote: ..Unfortunately, the mental health community refuses to differentiate between loving discipline and consensual BDSM, and abuse. Just one of several reasons that I don't think much of the community. That's as ridiculous as confusing rape with making love - the same physical act but the emotions are much different. I did like the way they decided Sadists were self harming. You have to wonder how much thought the glib answer from the resident (read patient) contained. This is going to wind up being something discussed again in assessment, I fear. quote: Ivy, I'm sorry your mother has closed off your childhood reality. When you find someone in your life who cares about you and is willing to give you both the physical sensations you need and the caring you missed out on, you'll be on the path to healing. Here's to hoping that I find that path pretty darned soon smiles

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:46:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sujuguete My apologies for chopping apart your post, but certain parts hit home with me, and I'm too ADD to try to tackle the whole thing. . . Not at all a problem, I'm going to do the same to yours Smiles quote: That's why I was so relieved to find the BDSM community, and know that I wasn't "sick" after all for enjoying being beaten and used. That, or there were plenty of other people with my same "sickness." Either way, knowing I am accepted for who and what I am, and accepting it myself, has made a huge difference in my life. I hope you can really, truly accept it, too. I found someone who I could talk to, and share everything with, and he didn't freak out, at any of it. I liked that feeling. There was someone as perverted as me. Of course, when I started following through on it, I freaked myself out by getting turned on, but that's a whole other story. I'm on a path to accepting me, it's just kinda bumpy, and twisty, and involving me screwing up a lot. quote: quote: It's okay that I was raped, it's okay that I was assaulted, it's okay that I wa abused. These are things that happened but not things that define me. Well, I don't think it was OKAY that you were raped and assaulted and abused. I don't think it is ever okay if it is not consensual. But you are right that those things do not define you. And it is okay to let go of the past and move on. Oh, I didn't mean it was okay I was raped. It's bad I was raped. I mean, I don't need to beat myself up over it, or blame myself for it, or think I could/should have known better/learned from experience, and so on. I don't think I was very clear when I said that the first time. quote: quote: Sermons which preached tolerance and love as a veiled condescension for a holier than thou attitude regarding those who were "different", the sick, the young, the gays, the poor... I was just talking to my son the other day about religion and those who are "different." He had just broken up with his girlfriend because she was homophobic. I sympathized with him and reminded him that Jesus hung out with the dregs of society when He was here before (the prostitutes and tax collectors). If He were here today, I think He would be hanging out with the AIDS victims (and the tax collectors). [;)] Just my two cents. . . sticks head above parapet See, even Jesus had the "holier than thou" attitude to some extent, or to engage in semantics, the apologists who were authors of the gospels and canonical material which ascribe sayings and actions to Jesus either have this attitude or ascribe this attitude to Jesus (theology major over here :P). He's saying "look at this tax collector, he is poor, he is a sinner by being himself, how awful he is, but god loves him. He is "other" than you, you are nice fluffy middle class first century jew person, now go and engage with the "other" to prove your holiness to god." Perhaps I'm just too much of a cynic in my religion now. I stick to more ethereal spirituality punctuated by High Church Anglicanism.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:48:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wisteriaV Lets make it simple. We are all wonderfully unique in our kinks and in our own skin we are only mentally ill when it goes against the society norms in which we live in in general. D/s and BDSM are a society unto themselves thus we are not mentally ill everyone else is! [:D] I don't have a problem wearing the "mentally ill" label. I'm certainly not mentally healthy and want to make significant changes to improve my mental health. And I think the phrase you're looking for is "causes significant distress to the patient or to those surrounding them" as the way that a behaviour is defined as an "illness" or problem.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 5:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 I do not know what you need to do in order for you accept yourself. Maybe the fact you have no choice will do it? You really don't have a choice. You are stuck with you. Adapt to that. Certainly not accepting that you in all your unique freakiness are who you are has not helped you. All of you is ok. You just have to accept that (No, other people are not going to see it that way.. screw them). You may need to deal with people who only want to accept parts of you in your life, but that does not mean you must change to please them. Just be you and let the chips fall where they may. BUT.. Take responsibility for who you are. Not blame.. Responsibility... Claim your life. You know who you are now and what you have to work with, so work with it. I do know where I want to end up, just not sure how to get there, hence the treatment plan and the therapy and such. Quietly, on my own, I've been getting a lot better at accepting the parts of me whilst still thinking of them as "other". I guess I'm not ready to think of them as "me" yet. And, yeah, changing for other people, that's a problem of mine. I like to make em happy and proud and such like, and given that they are more important than me (I got this little lesson in JOY - Jesus, Others, Yourself - as an order of priorities growing up, and it really, really stuck), I should be okay with changing to make them happy and proud and so on. Trying to quit that, it just doesn't work with my mum, who is the queen of emotional blackmail. quote: There have been lots of sadistic lesbian domminas who got really screwed in the happy childhood department and wen't on to live successful and joy filled lives. There is no special condition you have to fulfill before you can join thier ranks. I would rather be the bottom though, so, perhaps I'll join them only slightly, and be the sadistic, bisexual, masochistic, switch type submissive I always knew I could be.

Maxwell67 -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 6:07:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan I would rather be the bottom though, so, perhaps I'll join them only slightly, and be the sadistic, bisexual, masochistic, switch type submissive I always knew I could be. Whoops, that is yet another object lesson that I ought to be looking at people's profiles before answering their posts. quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan it's okay to want to turn them into obedient little borg types, I think I may have thought this part of your OP meant more than it did.

Lindamae508 -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 6:20:06 PM)
what makes you different from others, each of us has our own demons to bare, how we care for these demons is what defines us. I feel for you but have to tears, only hope you find what you need, for the only person you need answer to is yourself. Who cares what others think, for they are only opinons and not mine. What I think of my self is what matters most to me, others are of little intrest, let alone important. Last but not least, "to whom do you see when you look within the mirror", I only see me when I look in and it is only me that I must answer too! From GrinderV

DelightnDevotion -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 6:29:05 PM)
Oh my goodness but I can relate to everything you've written IvyMorgan--wowzers but have I "been there, done that". I can remember thinking it was Hell to have to recover from the abuse of my childhood. But I was wrong. Hell is having to recover from the abuse of my childhood while trying to get help in doing so from a conservative, mainstream, judgmental, narrowminded mental health community. I went in with one set of problems and came out with the same damn set of problems and a whole new set (thanks to their heaping on unwarranted diagnoses and creating so many dificulties that I couldn't focus on the initial things I sought help for). It was UGLY and sooooooo infurating. [:@] After running for my life I abandoned organized religion, embraced some lifestyle activities found a therapist who helped me immensely. I moved on. I'm now doing some "touch up work" because the trauma of my abusive marriage triggered another dip into the well of the trauma of my childhood. Somehow, the Divine landed me plop in the lap of the most phenomenal psychiatrist I've ever met (and believe me, I've met a lot as both a client and a colleague). I tell her I'm thinking of going to a Swinger's Party and she says, "That could be cool. How can we use that experience to help you?" I tell her I'm going to get into BDSM and she says "I can see why you would want to do that. How can we use that experience to help you?". I tell her I've found the Dom of my dreams and she says, "This is wonderful. I think finally having a strong man in your life who doesn't abuse and take advantage of you just might be the place where you can heal from the damage toxic relationships have caused. How can I help you use this experience to heal?" I just love this woman!!!!! [:)] May you find a healthy, hopeful path too IvyMorgan. You deserve nothing less and soooooooooo much more!!!

Maxwell67 -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/13/2008 6:49:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan I do know where I want to end up, just not sure how to get there, hence the treatment plan and the therapy and such. Quietly, on my own, I've been getting a lot better at accepting the parts of me whilst still thinking of them as "other". I guess I'm not ready to think of them as "me" yet. And, yeah, changing for other people, that's a problem of mine. I like to make em happy and proud and such like, and given that they are more important than me (I got this little lesson in JOY - Jesus, Others, Yourself - as an order of priorities growing up, and it really, really stuck), I should be okay with changing to make them happy and proud and so on. Trying to quit that, it just doesn't work with my mum, who is the queen of emotional blackmail. I wonder if you mothers emotional blackmail ever made her happy. Somehow I doubt it. My experience is even when it works it never makes anyone happy. I think you can find much more fun ways to change to make people happy than the method you have been using and since it is a danger for you perhaps you should be a lot more discriminaging about just who you choose to change for and why. If you desire to change for someone, choose one person you trust to guide your transformation in a healthy way.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/14/2008 6:31:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maxwell67 quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan I would rather be the bottom though, so, perhaps I'll join them only slightly, and be the sadistic, bisexual, masochistic, switch type submissive I always knew I could be. Whoops, that is yet another object lesson that I ought to be looking at people's profiles before answering their posts. quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan it's okay to want to turn them into obedient little borg types, I think I may have thought this part of your OP meant more than it did. LOL, no harm, no foul. I just likes hypnosis is all.

thetammyjo -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/14/2008 6:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IvyMorgan But, here's the kicker, he suggested a possibility that all of my problems, all of my problems, are related to sex. My thoughts, since you asked for them -- foolish to ask or not, you can decide -- are two-fold. This might or might not be a good diagnosis.. frankly after one meeting with him I'm mighty suspicious. He can't honestly know that much about you from one session. Take my therapist. I was seeing her for over two years when my parents visited and we arranged to go to a session together. At the end of the session my therapist hugged me and said "I understand so much more now." When she saw then in action together and with me, when she saw how they reacted to her and my questions, she started to understand my childhood better. Like it or not, we are all created as individuals during our childhood and any attempt to change that as adults will be a struggle. Secondly it depends on what he means by "sex" and how its a problem. If he's just going to tell you want to think and do because he's "more intelligent than you" then I would saw he is not doing a good job period as a therapist. His job isn't to fix you or make you better... his job should be to help you figure out what is best for you, not for anyone else, not for any Freudian idea, not for any other client, and damned well not for him. Personally if a therapist started just telling me what was wrong and what to think in the first session, I'd run not walk to another therapist.

IvyMorgan -> RE: Religion, Mental Health and Kink (8/14/2008 6:57:22 AM)
I've been seeing this psychiatrist, who is not a thrapist at all, for quite a while now. I first saw him about 2 years ago. I think what he means by sex is anything and everything pertaining to my sexuality and the expression of my sexual identity. Which is a fairly broad topic, really. Though his first language is Catalan, so sometimes his english is a little clunky still, he's improving lots. The first to sessions, I walked out fuming and offended by things he'd said without quite meaning to. Thank you for you input, tammyjo, this is a clarification as much as anything else. I do agree with what you say, were this a first meeting, I wouldn't have the same level of positive thought about this.

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