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lally3 -> submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 4:53:51 PM)
ive always put my submission to a D as the first and foremost part of the deal. it seemed the honest way of going about it. afterall, isnt that what is expected of us, isnt that the whole premis and point. i realise now that trust is enough to start with. full submission to the D can come later if everything keeps progressing. with trust its possible to submit to the play, but to submit your heart and mind is a growing process that develops over time. play may come before or after this process but im not discussing that. the whole accent is on submission - D types time and again will push for it, threads go on and on about it. the pressure to be submissive, to prove their submissiveness - to ride a mindfuck like RS's thread in order to test your ability, to prove youre for real. i can submit my body to play through trust - the submission of my heart and mind will only come through consistant growth and creating a safe place for me to submit into - and that has very little to do with play in the end. i suppose what i have done is come full circle. when i started out i separated D/s from bdsm and was told i couldnt do that. so i didnt. i bagged the whole thing together and attempted to submit to the whole bang shoot at once. net result: bad result. i suppose the whole point of this thought process is because im teetering on the edge of a new relationship. im not going to call it D/s because he hasnt yet assumed my submission and i havent yet offered it. but i trust him. this is new for me - it has separated D/s and BDSM again. only this time i value each component for what it is. submission to BDSM is one part submission to D/s is another part putting those two together is the ultimate goal (for D/sers into BDSM) assuming the two will go together from the outset is a mistake this is no way some absolute statement - just a thought process that i would happily pick to bits with anyone who cares to.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 5:34:31 PM)
Interesting thoughts, lally. I appreciate you sharing them. I am also on the verge of a new relationship, and what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. In the past I've tend to jump right into a relationship - it's freeing, fun and just plain feels good to be in lust and to feel that heady excitement. But now we're both a bit gunshy though, and re taking things slowly. Both of us remark about how we feel impatient to 'fast forward' to the point where we feel like a couple - after all the hard work of earning and building that trust is done. But we both know you can't skip over that 'stuff'....it all strengthens the relationship. You write: "i can submit my body to play through trust - the submission of my heart and mind will only come through consistant growth and creating a safe place for me to submit into - and that has very little to do with play in the end." I find that to be very true for me also. I need a certain degree of trust to submit physically with the BDSM. It takes a lot more for me to be able to slip into full submission. I can be as obedient as possible ... but to feel that 'aaahhhh' feeling, the one where I know I am where I belong - that takes, as you said, a safe place and constant growth that comes from the building of the relationship. Ack... now I feel like I'm rambling ...

OrionTheWolf -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 5:51:22 PM)
Since what I am involved in would be classified TPE, or whatever the letters of the day are for it, trust is essential to complete surrender so it must come first. It takes time and shared experience for trust to be built.

Maxwell67 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 6:07:09 PM)
You do seem to be concerned that you do not feel the same way going in. You have noted this was different from what you have done in the past at least twice outside this thread, so you may be starting to get anxiety about that. However, I think it is not a bad thing at all, that your'e approaching this new relationship in a new way. It is not model based on previous relationships. It will grow in it's own way. I love that you are so observant about how things are developing. The only thing I would advise is take your observations in stride. Don't intellectualize it. Don't make assumptions about what it means. If it feels like it is moving in a direction that works for you, then that is enough. If you have no expectations going it, then you will not be dissapointed by broken expectations. It is ok to be adventurous.

DelightnDevotion -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 6:39:55 PM)
Well, maybe I'm odd duck out but for me everything waits until trust and an emotional connection is established. I guard my heart, my submission and my body from those I don't yet trust. My Dom and I dated pretty much vanilla style--knowing that a D/s relationship was our intended goal--for several months before we even started discussing my submitting to him. After we talked about that some more then we started to add in some play. When I felt comfy with the level of trust and connection we had I then asked him to be my Dom and I started to fully submit to him.

Huntertn -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 6:46:38 PM)
Welcome to the Real World..Trust has to come first..then anything else can and will be built on that..Because if you don't have trust..then nothing else should or will happen that makes you want to keep it going..

SimplyMichael -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 6:55:32 PM)
Trust should be something that develops over time based on seeing actions and words correspond. Some of that can be formed because you have watched someone in a vanilla or a bdsm situation for some time, it can be formed by how they treat you, but it shouldn't just be "trust me bitch"... Same goes for every element of the relationship. Before I would do rape play or force someone, I sure as hell have given it a lot of time for the trust to develop. Before I trust someone with my heart and my soft underbelly, you can sure as hell bet I have given it time. Now all of these things are not on/off switches, they are a continuum. I give a bit of trust and my heart up front because I trust myself that I tend to pick decent partners. Sometime you flirt a bit, give a small order disguised as a request, or you utter "yes sir" as a flirtation of his dominance. You keep giving a bit more, see how it is handled and if is used poorly you step back if it is used well you give a bit more.

TysGalilah -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 7:23:41 PM)
Hi Lally yes, I agree there is a difference in submitting to and submission of I think it has to do with the evolving of trust and the degrees of trust.. and so degrees of submission.. In retrospect, for instance, I trusted and was already "obeying" Tyson to a certain degree when I met him face to face. We had been talking for hours daily for nearly a month before we met in person and I felt a certain amt of trust, wanted to please him, and knew I would "submit" to certain criteria he desired of me when I walked into that bookstore to meet him. Had I given over my control to him? Was I in submission to him? not if I compare my feelings to 3 mos later.............. 9 mos later.......1 1/2 yrs later......etc.. Experiences and experiencing each other deepens and changes "wanting to" completely trust to " being able" to completely trust. my submitting to obeying him ( in a particular situation) & to please him based on a trust was first, and then it grew into submission of my control later on as my trust deepened. I trusted him enough to meet him and felt reasonbly sure I was safe but I wasn't giving my control over yet. There was clearly d and s mindset role dynamic resonating between us, yet he wasn't taking control and I wasn't in submission to him. Others experiences probably vary

lally3 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 7:25:24 PM)
darn, ive just typed something and lost it, bum! ill try again (glares sternly at pc) hi needingmore - it is about being gunshy, absolutely, its all about doing it differently if the old way didnt work out. jumping in was something i kept doing and then feeling hurt when i turned around and found id left the guy behind... laughing! instead of rushing in im following, simple when you think it out and write it down. The only thing I would advise is take your observations in stride. Don't intellectualize it. Don't make assumptions about what it means. If it feels like it is moving in a direction that works for you, then that is enough. If you have no expectations going it, then you will not be dissapointed by broken expectations. It is ok to be adventurous. (quote Maxwell67) great advice, thank you. allowing yourself to go with the flow, but also taking responsibility for allowing yourself. putting too much emphasis on the future when youve barely passed first base. enjoying now for what it is - pure hedonism. yes, enjoying the process and not rushing toward the goal - not having a goal even - just living the moment for as long as the moment lasts until the next moment and hopefully the next. yes, this is going to be much more fun!

lally3 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 8:15:47 PM)
giving physically takes no emotional output but it does increase the trist of trust. i can do that and not feel emotionally bankrupt if it ends there. submitting to play is different to submission of your heart and mind. if play builds the bond and the trust youve given is strengthened and the little bits of submission are given and taken then gradually the heart and mind can follow. i have to go to bed.. its 4.12am here in england.. god im going to regret this in 3 hours when i have to get up for work. thanks for all of your thoughts and advice on this, ive enjoyed reading them and ive taken it all on board too. xx

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 9:40:55 PM)
I really enjoy reading a thread such as this. For me being on the D side of the coin, I don't try to force for submission out of somebody. Either it starts to happen or not. I've had a number of girls over the years which were totally willing to submit to me, to the point they expressed things such as "I'll let you do whatever you want to me"... "I believe in the man being in complete control of everything" and many other words. This is coming from the mouthes of girls in and not in the lifestyle itself. I'm not out to mindlessly Dom anybody there is. In fact, I've passed up on many opportunities for a number of reasons. If I'm not into somebody, there's no way in Hell I'm going to be D/s anything. That would be complete BS on my part. I really don't walk around trying to force things, not at the start of anything. They have to be willing to give me control before I take control. Taking control of something that is freely and willfully given at some point in time, is the way to go, at least in my book. Just because I'm alone or single does not mean I'm desparate. Being Dom does not mean I'm desparate either. I do think that me being in the lifestyle has made me more aware of the stupid power games that people play. I've had girls try hitting on me with the topping pussy power technique... and well... I just won't bite or play along with it. I don't care how hot looking somebody is. If they are trying to play power games and get me wrapped around their fingers, they are in for an experience. What the hell am I trying to express here. Just natural dynamics of power that occurs. Sure us lifestylers like to think we have the Market Cornered on Power Games and D/s. In many regards I think some of us tend to loose focus and want to force things along. Some things, I believe are best not to force along. I think if more people developed a sense of awareness, of when the timing or moment was right. Things would be a lot easier. I can't force somebody to have an actually and real interest in me to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I will assert myself. I will express my interests. I will flirt, make suggestions, I will even make the move for the first kiss. I'm not the kind of guy to sit there pissing myself at the thoughts of talking to a women. If I'm out and about, and make eye contact with somebody. I might move into a conversation in 2.5 seconds flat. I'm not afraid to walk up to somebody and ask them to dance. To make jokes and simply be myself. I never go out with the intentions of trying to pick somebody up at the bar to get laid. That's not my goal when dealing with the opposite. I want to go out and have a good time. Meet people in general. If somebody along the way, that I encounter and we click. I'll spend more time having quality conversation and having a good time. Not trying to force anything, but being assertive. Hell, if somebody turns me down for a dance or is not into talking. That's perfectly fine. Some people are already involved with somebody, married or whatever. Some guys take things way too personally if a girl shoots down their advances. I think part of the problem is with people being too wrapped up in thier own crappy sense of self esteem. They try to assert themselves, and if they get shot down, their world crumbles for the rest of the night. Ego's that can't see past themselves. Again, I wish I could say this is a BDSM exclusive thing, but it's not. D/s and power games and people trying to force things along happens in the so called Vanilla world too.... Sure, I might pull off some verbal mind fucks while joking around with somebody. Hell, I've managed to tactfully say some pretty twisted things have somebody smiling biting their lip and then breaking out in a good laugh. Starts with verbal intercourse of the mind first. Communication itself is about like Sex. Anyways, I enjoyed this thread....

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 10:07:57 PM)
I've done BDSM without D/s. In fact I had a whole relationship with BDSM in it and no D/s. Dom couple. It's a little difficult to force somebody to trust me, also it's impossible to force them to get to know me. There has to be some desire for them to want to know me, some interest in me to begin with. Just because somebody is interested in me, does not mean they want a long term or serious relationship either. I made some posts on another thread about TPE, where that does not magically happen overnight. Takes time. I personally view D/s as a growing dynamic, that the D/s should become more and greater in time. Still none the less, in areas of my partners live that perhaps I don't have full authority over. I do have the power where my thoughts or opinions matter. Hence the power to express myself, and assert myself. The power of influence. Just not the power of authority. Sure D/s is based on an Authority Dynamic. To maintain it, you have to have true respect and trust. At least in my book. Sure, there are moments of doing things that serve as reminders of the D/s Authority Dynamic. Don't get me wrong, erotic humilation that's between consenting people is HOT... Be it verbal or physical humilation. Doing all those wicked hot nasty wonderul things we all do. I'm not trying to water down D/s or BDSM at all one bit here. Not even the extreme M/s relationships. However, without somebody who submits first... well, trying to force somebody into a choice they really don't want to make or feel comfortable about, just might bite you in the ass.

Prinsexx -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/11/2008 11:49:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally3 i submission to BDSM is one part submission to D/s is another part putting those two together is the ultimate goal (for D/sers into BDSM) assuming the two will go together from the outset is a mistake this is no way some absolute statement - just a thought process that i would happily pick to bits with anyone who cares to. i just can't separate myself into parts like this. i spend too much time professionally analysing others to choose to do it to myself. Maybe it's a fault, maybe not. i am a 'total submersion' freak....... and also teetering on another edge..... Great insight Lally though and it's good to have a parachute before jumping off so they say...... it's way too early in the morning to think but this will make interesting reading so i'll be back. Here's blowing air beneath your wings........

CrazyC -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/12/2008 3:17:34 AM)
Lally....I guess I am still trying to figure this all out too. It sure the hell isn't easy. A couple of people have now used trust as the gage of how much one submits. It could be just me, but I never found this a gage of how much I would submit to someone in play or in a relationship (D/s). I have a friend who jokes with me all the time to submit to him. He does this only because it is a hoot to him to hear me tell him "No." I completely trust him, because he was there for me during a rough patch. Though he is a good friend, I will never submit to him in any form. There just isn't anything there. I sort of see "submitting to" the act of play as just that...fun. Yea there needs to be trust, but as long as all parties agree on that it is what it is. Awesome. :) I see "submission of" as more a level of commitment. Yea there is trust, but it is more gaged on the amount of comminment the two parties are giving into a relationship. I know this isn't a well rounded processed statements here. It is 3am and i just got done picking lice from my um head. And as I said before, I am still trying to come to full grasp of the diff. :)

RavenMuse -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/12/2008 4:28:42 AM)
Both submission and trust have two stages, the second being built on the first. The first can be given the second can only be won/earned. caput capitis. Of the Head. you decide to trust, decide the person is worth trusting with your submission. Both are there to an extent, but both are a little fragile. pectus pectoris. Of the heart. You can't make the decision to trust or submit to this level. It can only be reached when caput capitis is built on, you are drawn deeper and deeper as the lesser form of trust and submission is validated time and time again over time.It is the difference between thinking you can trust someone and implicitly doing so because they have a long track record of having your trust and not breaking it, leading to you to have more confidence in that trust. The difference between doing what He requires just because it is in your nature to do so and doing it in responce to HIS nature, His Dominance. My girl gave her trust and submission, I took those and showed her just how deep the rabbithole goes, freeing her to the depths of her submission as My slave.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/12/2008 5:43:51 AM)
After reading through some of the first posts on this thread, it got me to thinking about the word 'trust' and how it is truly built in a relationship. I did a search and came up with a terrific thread from earlier this year. I thought it might be valuable to some reading this thread - it was to me. I especially like the way RavenMuse broke down his thoughts on the two levels of trust both here and on the other thread. Thank you! [:)] http://www.collarchat.com/m_1747108/mpage_1/key_trust/tm.htm#1747108

leadership527 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/12/2008 6:29:50 AM)
You know, it's not just submission either. Trust is a component of ANY relationship. People, in general, would do themselves a favor if they would stop trying to go faster than the trust dynamics of a given new relationship allow for. Even the most vanilla parts of a relationship are fraught with peril.

lally3 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/12/2008 9:54:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220 After reading through some of the first posts on this thread, it got me to thinking about the word 'trust' and how it is truly built in a relationship. I did a search and came up with a terrific thread from earlier this year. I thought it might be valuable to some reading this thread - it was to me. I especially like the way RavenMuse broke down his thoughts on the two levels of trust both here and on the other thread. Thank you! [:)] http://www.collarchat.com/m_1747108/mpage_1/key_trust/tm.htm#1747108 thanks for the link.. the quote that really resonated to me, though it was all great reading, was Tethersend ....'bottom line is trust yourself' trusting yourself to take each step in full knowledge of what you are doing and why and most importantly, to whom. for a D to know that their sub is taking each step of her submission to them thoughtfully, carefully and with growing trust must mean a hell of a lot more than throwing herself at their feet and saying 'do anything to me i am yours'. trusting yourself means making the right decisions through due process and taking full responsiblity for those decisions and their outcome - good, bad or indifferent. i think it can be incredibly confusing - particularly for those new in their explorations and discoveries. there is so much thats contradictory and it doesnt matter how many times you read the blurb none of it is going to make much sense to them until they find it out for themselves.

slavegirljoy -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/13/2008 5:34:09 AM)
Truly, none of what you wrote makes any sense to me, not because you didn't write it well and not because i don't believe it is true for you and others, as well. What you wrote doesn't make any sense to me because it has no meaning for me and no relevance to my life. From my own perspective, built on my own experiences and relevant to my own life, i don't, and have never "submitted to" BD/SM or to D/s or to anything other than to the Man i am in a relationship with and, that has always been true regardless of whether there was any BD/SM involved in the relationship or not and regardless of whether the man was Dominant with me or not. Also, i separate D-s from BD/SM. In my life, BD/SM has always been nothing more than a form of sexual expression and D-s has always been a relationship style. i have been in relationships with guys who were Dominant with me, as in telling me what i will and won't do and being "in charge" of me, and never showed any interest in BD/SM, as in kinky sex. i have also been in relationships with men who were very kinky and never showed any interest in Dominated me. Then, there have been the two Men who have been both kinky and Dominant with me and, with them, i have had the best relationships of my life. Within my sexually intimate relationships, i have always submitted, without even thinking about it. That's just the way i have always been. The guy i was involved with never needed to do anything to bring about my submission, because if i liked a guy and i decided i want to be in a relationship with him, then i already had a sense of trust in him, otherwise i wouldn't be spending my time with him, in the first place, and i submitted to him, even if he didn't realize it or didn't call it that. Being submissive isn't a choice i make, when i am in a relationship with someone. i don't know how not to be submissive in my intimate relationships. joy Owned servant of Master David

lally3 -> RE: submitting to - submission of (8/13/2008 10:59:15 AM)
Also, i separate D-s from BD/SM. In my life, BD/SM has always been nothing more than a form of sexual expression and D-s has always been a relationship style. i have been in relationships with guys who were Dominant with me, as in telling me what i will and won't do and being "in charge" of me, and never showed any interest in BD/SM, as in kinky sex. i have also been in relationships with men who were very kinky and never showed any interest in Dominated me. Then, there have been the two Men who have been both kinky and Dominant with me and, with them, i have had the best relationships of my life. hey there slavegirljoy, in a way this is what im talking about though. i am the same as you - my submission to the man has always come first - unlike you (im sure) i have gone feet first in and allowed the whole thing to overtake me and any common sense i thought i possessed. in compartmentalising the D/s from the BDSM i realise that trusting the man and submitting to physical play with him, i can let that dynamic work whilst my gradual submission to him as my D/s partner slowly unfurls. in the past i have trusted before i should and i have given my submission into the D/s dynamic before i should. im hoping that this way i can submit to the man physically and allow my emotions and my submission of heart and mind to follow, but in a measured and mindful way.

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