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RE: Legal Questions - 8/9/2008 2:34:31 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		In the UK, we have the Spanner case, in which 16 bgay men were prosecuted either for assault, or for aiding and abeting an assault against themselves.  So that's all the S&M stuff out.

We have CJIB article 63 which makes the possession of certain images, namely ones which show injury or potential injury to breasts, anus or genitals, even if it is fake (so you can't own a copy of Hostel the movie, even though you can legally watch it in the theatres).

And then, we also have a few laws from the 1800s still rattling around on the books... one that says cutting during an assault is a big deal, which 70 years before penicillin, it was, and another that I seem to be forgetting the details of right now.

These have all been used to prosecute kinky people, (except CJIB, which isn't brought in til next January I believe) hence the camapigns of organisations like Backlash, and the assistance work of the Spanner Trust, to help those being prosecuted.

Of course, it's legal to own dildos and things, but very illegal to possess a blade over a few inches long.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Legal Questions - 8/9/2008 4:40:33 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Yeah, and other folks who do classes preach the SSC mantra.  Well, I do classes too, and I'll stand by the citations in my earlier posts.  There are references in that one decision alone which span several jurisdictions.  Case law and statute trump propaganda, opinion, and a leather title any day


When all else fails, throw in a few insults.

The panel he does the class with includes ex law enforcement officers...and I have owned dungeons and had cops walk through while people were "assaulting" each other.  My statement was an objection to those saying bdsm was illegal anywhere and in many states that is completely false.

Besides, if that were SO true, police would charge prodommes with assault rather than a sex crime like prostitution.  If they charge prodommes for prostitution, then bdsm is sex according to that state's case law. 

I stand by that statement. 

(in reply to DavidS8ist)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Legal Questions - 8/9/2008 9:37:32 PM   
lighthearted


Posts: 1165
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Mississippi has a law against "insertable items made for prurient interest" and it is forbidden to sell them.
Several adult shops have been busted for "vibrators" and "dildoes". 
But, you can go to the local Walgreen's and buy an "extra long facial massager" completely legally.

Stefan


ok, now that is funny. 

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(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Legal Questions - 8/9/2008 9:45:26 PM   
suhlut


Posts: 622
Joined: 7/20/2007
Status: offline 		"In New York and in many other states, assault does *not* require the participation of the alleged victim to be prosecuted"

From my understanding..when people here talk about it being possible to prosecute, even without the participation of the alleged victim, is because after countless times police would be called in for a domestic disterbance, where someone accuses the other of abuse (hitting, slapping, beating, ect) and they arrest the accused person, the many times that the accuser shows up and defends the person they accused.

Now, around here, its really rather well known, that if the police are called for a domestic violence disterbance, then SOMEONE will be arrested.

Lots of times, both are arrested. So, most know, that you need to be careful about making false complaints.

i also think they have made it possible to prosecute an alleged abuser, because of how so often battered wives would show up in court, doing their best to get their abuser from being prosecuted.

(in reply to IvyMorgan)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 3:29:33 AM   
DavidsGem


Posts: 51
Joined: 7/21/2007
Status: offline 		Brightest Blessings
 
There in lies my problem with legalizing s&m, it was a long hard fight to get the domestic assault laws passed. A battered woman before this law could be convinced to defend her abuser, in fact police officers find domestic disputes one of the most dangerous situations to go into because very often the victim will turn to defend their abuser. To legalize s&m opens the door to domestic abusers to claim she consented under the s&m statues.
 
I am not chicken little crying that the sky is falling, I just believe that you should be absolutely informed of what could happen, including the legal ramification. As mentioned somebody gives a lecture on the law and that is great and maybe they CAN'T prosecute you, but they can arrest you and as was mentioned where to you go to get your reputation back, as well as your money used to release yourself? Tell the folks of Attleboro (spelling)  that what they did was not illegal, they spent life savings and had their reputations ruined, lost jobs. It is wonderful to demo about the law, and I think it should continue, however we must also look to the past arrests and court cases to understand that sometimes there are worse things than jail time.
 
Blessed Be
Gem
Fear Fuil Iobair-
(Man's Blood Sacrifice)

_____________________________

Fear Fuil Iobair-
(Man's Blood Sacrifice)

"If I had a choice I would not serve with love, for she is a hard cruel mistress, much harsher than I can take most days”-Gem2007

(in reply to suhlut)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 4:15:20 AM   
DavidS8ist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

Yeah, and other folks who do classes preach the SSC mantra.  Well, I do classes too, and I'll stand by the citations in my earlier posts.  There are references in that one decision alone which span several jurisdictions.  Case law and statute trump propaganda, opinion, and a leather title any day


When all else fails, throw in a few insults.

The panel he does the class with includes ex law enforcement officers...and I have owned dungeons and had cops walk through while people were "assaulting" each other.  My statement was an objection to those saying bdsm was illegal anywhere and in many states that is completely false.

Besides, if that were SO true, police would charge prodommes with assault rather than a sex crime like prostitution.  If they charge prodommes for prostitution, then bdsm is sex according to that state's case law. 

I stand by that statement. 


There were no insults, Michael.  Simply facts and citations.

Why not look up the following cases:  San Diego Six.  Attleboro.  Jovanovic.  Why not check out the book I mentioned written by a sex crimes prosecutor.  Again, opinion is terrific, but statute and case law will trump it every time *provided a prosecutor wants to go down that path*.

Look, I was doing fire and knife play on a Friday night in Hellfire a few years before it closed when about a dozen cops came through looking for building code violations.  They looked around for the violations, a couple looked interestingly at the people playing, and they moved on.  They're *not* going to crowd the docket with arrests from an S&M club that they've allowed to operate openly for decades.  They'd look pretty foolish.

But if someone's partner goes to the supermarket with a bruise on her face from a slap that was administered when she was tied up last night and a do-gooder neighbor sees it, all bets are off.

I've never said folks *will* be prosecuted.  I'm saying the possibility exists and that it's irresponsible to say "S&M is legal".  This ain't a "the sky is falling" thread on my part.  However it is, "There's a remote possibility of which folks should be aware."  The legal possibility - not probability, not certainty, possibility - exists for a top to be prosecuted for assault.

As to why pro dommes are prosecuted for prostitution?  Two reasons:  It's an easier case to get them to cop to because most of the time prosecutors won't need to drag johns into court, and most often, the neighbors' have called in the cops thinking the dommes are running a whore house.  It's a slam dunk for a prosecutor who gets a plea and a fine, for the neighbors who get at least temporary relief, and for the domme herself who needn't go through a lengthy and expensive trial.

Just please, for the sake of clarity, please read the citations in the case I presented and look up some of them and some of the cases I mentioned.  Then think for a moment about the monies lost, reputations lost, careers destroyed because some folks believed that S&M was legal.

D.


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 4:55:09 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		the simple rule is  keep it privaite keep it safe and keep it behind closed doors no one will say a thing  

no drama  no problem yep  i think that works

(in reply to DavidS8ist)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 6:16:58 AM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

the simple rule is  keep it privaite keep it safe and keep it behind closed doors no one will say a thing  

no drama  no problem yep  i think that works


This is very good advice and that which I follow.
The other, be careful who you play with.

_____________________________

I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 7:17:51 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The San Diego Six were not charged with assault, it was indecency due to the morons selling tickets publicly in a way that turned a legal private bdsm event into an illegal public one.  All charges were dismissed.

Attleboro was assault on a police officer because they "threatened" the officer with a spoon.

Jovanovic is the only one of the three cases where they were charged with assault for doing consensual bdsm.

Besides, three cases in well over a decade, most of which center around issues unrelated to BDSM clearly shows that it is an overzealous DA which can happen to anyone for any reason anyway.

If you want to actually understand, look at the website for NCSF, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom.  The recomend TALKING to the police if you are going to host a large bdsm event, how exactly does that show it is illegal?

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.php?option=com_keyword&id=181


(in reply to DavidS8ist)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 11:19:05 AM   
DavidS8ist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The San Diego Six were not charged with assault, it was indecency due to the morons selling tickets publicly in a way that turned a legal private bdsm event into an illegal public one.  All charges were dismissed.

Attleboro was assault on a police officer because they "threatened" the officer with a spoon.

Jovanovic is the only one of the three cases where they were charged with assault for doing consensual bdsm.

Besides, three cases in well over a decade, most of which center around issues unrelated to BDSM clearly shows that it is an overzealous DA which can happen to anyone for any reason anyway.

If you want to actually understand, look at the website for NCSF, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom.  The recomend TALKING to the police if you are going to host a large bdsm event, how exactly does that show it is illegal?

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.php?option=com_keyword&id=181




My last post on this thread, folks, I promise.

1. One of the attendees at the Attleboro party whom I know personally was arrested and charged with assault because she was using a wooden kitchen utensil to "paddle" another attendee.  That's why the event was called "Paddleboro" in the media.

2. Please just think about this:  Why does NCSF tell folks to talk to LEO's if S&M is legal.  You don't need to explain yourself to LEO's when you're not doing any othere legal act.  I don't talk to LEO's when I run a super bowl party at my home.  Could it possibly be they want you to talk to them so they don't arrest you because they *can* arrest you on assault charges.

3. I've offered citations to statute, case law, and judicial opinion stating consent can not be used as a defense against assault, specifically in a consensual S&M situation.  Can you offer any such citation - not an NCSF opinion, but a legal citation - excluding S&M from assault?

4. Lastly, I've said over and over again, the odds of being arrested and indicted are small.  But if someone is, the costs in all aspects of that person's life are profound.  As someone wisely said earlier, know the person(s) with whom you interact and do so with knowledge of potential consequences.  It was and is my main point.

I'm done.

D.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 11:43:47 AM   
MasterAramis


Posts: 279
Joined: 7/29/2008
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

If you're really concerned you might locate a Kink friendly professional


This is usually a good idea in any event. Kink Aware Professionals are good for a number of things. Living Trusts, Wills, Power of Attorney etc. A good place to find them in your area is the Kap web site which is now maintained by the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. Here is the link:

http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.php?option=com_keyword&id=270

Sincerely,

Aramis Duval


(in reply to silkncarol)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 12:51:36 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidS8ist

[
There were no insults, Michael.  Simply facts and citations.

Why not look up the following cases:  San Diego Six.  Attleboro.  Jovanovic.  Why not check out the book I mentioned written by a sex crimes prosecutor.  Again, opinion is terrific, but statute and case law will trump it every time *provided a prosecutor wants to go down that path*.

Look, I was doing fire and knife play on a Friday night in Hellfire a few years before it closed when about a dozen cops came through looking for building code violations.  They looked around for the violations, a couple looked interestingly at the people playing, and they moved on.  They're *not* going to crowd the docket with arrests from an S&M club that they've allowed to operate openly for decades.  They'd look pretty foolish.

But if someone's partner goes to the supermarket with a bruise on her face from a slap that was administered when she was tied up last night and a do-gooder neighbor sees it, all bets are off.

I've never said folks *will* be prosecuted.  I'm saying the possibility exists and that it's irresponsible to say "S&M is legal".  This ain't a "the sky is falling" thread on my part.  However it is, "There's a remote possibility of which folks should be aware."  The legal possibility - not probability, not certainty, possibility - exists for a top to be prosecuted for assault.

As to why pro dommes are prosecuted for prostitution?  Two reasons:  It's an easier case to get them to cop to because most of the time prosecutors won't need to drag johns into court, and most often, the neighbors' have called in the cops thinking the dommes are running a whore house.  It's a slam dunk for a prosecutor who gets a plea and a fine, for the neighbors who get at least temporary relief, and for the domme herself who needn't go through a lengthy and expensive trial.

Just please, for the sake of clarity, please read the citations in the case I presented and look up some of them and some of the cases I mentioned.  Then think for a moment about the monies lost, reputations lost, careers destroyed because some folks believed that S&M was legal.

D.






You made a blanket and unsupportable claim that consent could not be a defense against assault charges (..."In New York and many other venues, "consent" is *not* a defense.  "...), which is patently untrue. Lack of consent is a neccessary element for assault, rape, kidnapping, robbery, and many other crimes against persons.

Applying citations based on domestic abuse, or the potential for severe bodily harm or risk of death as being something that cannot be consented to (which is the prevailing legal consensus), to playing consensually is an enormous leap that defies logic. 

Finding politicians who feel that they can subvert the law to promote some 'moral' agenda isn't exactly compelling proof either... long after the Consitution made an unequivocal statement on the equality of the races, sheriffs, judges, prosecutors, and legislators were going after people up for exercising their legal rights.

And the number of whackos in power who have followed the same pattern in arresting people for consensual activities is miniscule compared to that, and so far less likely to overturn the law of the land, which is based on the concept that consent is indeed a key component in determining rape, kidnapping, assault, and so forth.

(in reply to DavidS8ist)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 1:04:12 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		Heh- it is illegal to sell dildos in my county... but I don't mind, they are cheaper online anyway. Sex stores are only for walking around and grossing out over the tester toys.

In my opinion, which is sketchy at best, BDSM will continue to have legal issues as long as people keep telling themselves that they are some kind of dark, scary, super secretive individual.

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 8/10/2008 1:06:18 PM >

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(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 2:44:23 PM   
MsJssk


Posts: 67
Joined: 3/28/2008
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I hope I have the right link.  You can read about it here http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/072408/met_466806.shtml

There is literally no school within miles of this place.  No, it's not across the street from a park.  It's on a stretch of highway with very few residences around it.  In that area, it's business district.  It has more to do with living in the bible belt than anything else.



Thanks. The news article is breif and gives very little in the way of news, which is typical. But there is one short sentance that implies that the way the city manages to keep the store closed is by a zoning law that says an adult store must be a certain distance from something. Of course, the "news" article did not say what it had to be far from or how far it had to be.

MsJ

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Legal Questions - 8/10/2008 3:56:33 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I hate to say it, but the entire paper here actually has very little news content.  Truthfully, it's one of the worst rags I've come across.  They literally printed an article about a violent murder, where the journalism was so bad that the last line read, "Foul play may be suspected."

Anyway, the zoning law was created after the business opened.   The city government has been quoted as saying that it's sole purpose in the battle is to keep "smut" out of the town.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MsJssk)
Profile   Post #: 55
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