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The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 9:04:45 AM   
msprudence


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Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure. --Abraham Lincoln
 
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. -- John Adams
 
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. -- Thomas Jefferson

I have a different vision of leadership. A leadership is someone who brings people together.
It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it.
--George W. Bush
 
Sigh.
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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 9:10:48 AM   
christine1


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i could go look up a bunch of quotes from famous people in history myself and get the complete opposite statements you did...what's your point?

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 9:13:18 AM   
Thadius


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It depends upon what the meaning of is is -Bill Clinton

However, I think you overlooked a President that had an even harder time with the English language, or at least a grasp on how to use it.  Take a look at Warren Harding.



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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 9:36:36 AM   
msprudence


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You are right. Quotes alone don't make the argument.

But I look at the dialog and discourse of the framers of our nation, and the dialog now; and it makes me sad.  It's not just about George Bush (whom I find appalling), but the level of dialog in general.

I wish we had better. This next election seems so important and so pointless. 

McCain terrifies me.  He's hellbent on war as a mechanism for change- and he's looking at Syria, Iran, Pakistan and Palestine through a sighting scope.  He doesn't understand most current technology, and he's made it clear that the state is more important that personal liberty.

Obama terrifies me.  I like what he says, but so far the only thing he's proven is that he in engaging and well-spoken.  I don't know what his skills are with regard to conquering the partisanship of congress or with working within the system that is currently in place.  I also worry that many of the programs he suggests are incredible expensive and mind-bogglingly bureaucratically intensive.  WPA for the new millenia doesn't work.

Neither one has really addressed the things that keep me up at night:  that we have a debt that will soon cripple our economy.  That the recession that we are in based on the housing market bubble, the loss of millions of jobs to other markets, and the ever rising cost of keeping a petroleum based energy program is only going to get much worse.   

I want a president who believes war is wrong; people should be fed, educated and cared for; and the planet should be cared for. I don't see that president on this years ballot.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 9:40:56 AM   
christine1


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i agree with you on most points.  i wish there was a canditate on the ballot that was a little more interested in fixing the problems we have at home instead of trying to fix the problems of the world.  yes, it's nice to help others, but you cant' help anyone else when your own house is in such disorder.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/3/2008 10:11:02 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: msprudence

I want a president who believes war is wrong; people should be fed, educated and cared for; and the planet should be cared for. I don't see that president on this years ballot.


And I want a pony.........

Jeff

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 9:20:08 AM   
UncleNasty


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We are merely pandered to by our elected officials, and in the process of elections.

Jefferson spoke about the need for the populace to be informed and educated, and that being the only real way to keep elected officials on track, in check and accountable to us, the people. Our Constitution begins "We the people..." In fact the preamble was a latter addendum. Never the less it was added, and with specificity.

Our citizenry, however, has become quite lazy. The percentage of citizens that have actually read our Constitution is small. Civics is a course no longer taught in schools (government funded schools). Smaller yet is the percentage that has much in the way of an understanding of it.

My hot button issue is "money." Because everything has a cost, typically measured in what people erroneously assume are "dollars," I believe it is a "controlling issue" and perhaps the controlling issue. The OP made reference to several of her issues - the national debt, the current state of the economy, the loss of jobs and production overseas, education. I see the strongest of connections to the issues important to her and to the issue most important to me.

To approach her issues without addressing what I see as the controlling issue is much like treating the symptoms of disease without addressing the underlying cause. As long as we continue to merely apply "bandaids" the problems will continue and will never be solved.

The US Constitution handles the issue of money quite specifically. Article 1, Section 8 states "Congress shall have the power to...Coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;" Article 1, Section 10 states "No state shall... emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts;"

The Mint and Coinage Act of 1792 gives us the definition of "dollar." This act actually predates our constitution. The dollar is defined in this act as being 371.25 grains of pure silver - easier just to refer to it as an ounce.

The difference between real money, real dollars, and what is circulated as being such is so vast it can be difficult to understand. Even more difficult is to understand the amount of power that has been taken from the people as a result of that difference.

What we have at this point, and for the last 95 years, is paper with some ink on it that the government forces us to utilize as our "medium of exchange." This is known as "fiat currency." Further, the creation and issuance of this fiat currency is controlled by one group - the privately owned corporation known as the Federal Reserve. Most people believe this to be a branch of the federal government but in reality it is no more federal than Federal Express.

The Federal Government, through the Secret Service, protects the power of this private corporation to be the only entity that can and does create and issue this fiat currency. They create this fiat currency not by having reserves of gold and silver and issuing paper receipts that are representative of these reserves. They create this fiat currency by simply turning on a printing press, and as has become the case of late, by simply punching some buttons on a computer and creating "digitized" entries.

Now, imagine if you were able to create and issue this fiat currency yourself, and that the Secret Service protected you as the only source. That would give you a lot of power, wouldn't it? Individuals, corporations and governments would be beholden to you for the grease that makes all the wheels turn, wouldn't they? Their futures would rise and fall based on decisions you made, and favors you granted or refused to grant, wouldn't they? I think that is a lot of power.

If we want better domestic policy, better foreign policy, better education, less governmental and personal debt, policies that act more in stewardship of the envirnment, less hunger, better candidates that are truely responsive to the needs and voices of the citizens, etc. That list could go on for several pages I'm sure. If we want any of that, or those not mentioned, returning to an honest system of money that is controlled by the citizens is of vital importance.

To quote TJ:

"If the American ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

To quote John Adams:

"all the perplexities, confusions and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, not from want ofhonor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation."

To quote James Madison:

"A popular gavernment without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives."

Patrick Hnery:

"The Constitution is not an instrument for government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government, lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."


One more illustration.

In 1913 I could take myself and 2 friends for dinner, desert and drinks to the Oak Room in the Seelbach Hotel, one of the finest dining establishments in Louisville. I could pay for it with a one ounce gold coin. Gold was approximately $27/oz. at that time. Today I could do the same thing, and in fact would get back some change (yes the Oak Room is still open). Gold currently is approximately $900/oz.

So, what has happened in the past 95 years? Is gold worth more? No. It has maintained it purchasing power - this is how we measure the value of currencies - purchasing power. In fact the purchasing power of gold has increased.

Our fiat currency, representative of nothing and backed by nothing, has lost its purchasing power, and its value.

Be well, and live free,

Uncle Nasty





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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 10:51:36 AM   
TheUtopian


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quote:

I want a president who believes war is wrong; people should be fed, educated and cared for; and the planet should be cared for. I don't see that president on this years ballot.




Both are clearly creatures that belong to competing factions of Wall Street.....

As I've mentioned many many times here before : At this level, a man is never defined by who he seems to be - but instead by the other men who surround him.

Just a minute bit of research on both the economic and foreign policy advisors of McCain and Obahma will cause you to run for your life....

Good post, MsPrudence. *wink*



- R




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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 11:40:36 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
In 1913 I could take myself and 2 friends for dinner, desert and drinks to the Oak Room in the Seelbach Hotel, one of the finest dining establishments in Louisville. I could pay for it with a one ounce gold coin. Gold was approximately $27/oz. at that time. Today I could do the same thing, and in fact would get back some change (yes the Oak Room is still open). Gold currently is approximately $900/oz.

So, what has happened in the past 95 years? Is gold worth more? No. It has maintained it purchasing power - this is how we measure the value of currencies - purchasing power. In fact the purchasing power of gold has increased.

Our fiat currency, representative of nothing and backed by nothing, has lost its purchasing power, and its value.

Shouldn't you know something of economics before you start pontificating on it?

There was inflation and recessions when the currency was tied directly to the value of precious metal. Ever heard of bank runs? Do you have any idea how devestating a small town's only bank closing its doors with all the deposits simply gone is?

As a matter of fact minor inflation of the currency is inevitable and desirable no matter whether the currency is fiat or hard. This low inflation rate, around 1% or so per year, is simply from the churning of the economy in the natural supply and demand interaction. static prices and/or actual deflation means either demand is very low across the board, obviously bad, or the amount of available currency is decreasing, we're close to this happening right now through the mortgage crisis, which can be disastrous, see the deflationary period of 1873-96 or 1930-33 both periods where are hard currency deflated and did a lot of more harm than an equivalent inflation rate would have done.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 1:15:30 PM   
Termyn8or


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DK, I do not agree with you on this. We'll address that later should we both be willing.

UN, DK did make a point, that having the dollar value strictly tied to a precious metal will not stabilize it completely, but he might not be taking in completely what a fiat currency is.

The difference is that people can manipulate the value of the currency, that is alot harder when it is real money. I think we can all agree on that. The Federal Reserve has a big impact on that, and the Federal Reserve operates in the best interest of the Federal Reserve, like any other company. And for some reason they will not audit the Federal Reserve.

Thomas Jefferson was right, and it has happened. They are a private entity, a corporation actually. So is the IRS by the way. But the only one that can't be audited is the Federal Reserve. Does this sound reasonable to anyone ? That the people who issue our medium of exchange cannot be held accountable for anything ? What planet is this ?

But that has been that way it is for a long time. I'd bet (fiat currency) that almost nobody here has ever held a real dollar in their hand. We grew up and were raised in this system. And became dependant upon it.

We can't go back to real money now, it is too late. It is like being caught in a trap.

You want to evolve, let's go there. You just make enough to pay the bills, everything else is done with bartering. Slow "the economy" down as much as possible. Reduce the desirability of their scrip, because that is all it is, except when you consider that when you want electricity and gas, it comes in handy.

TV breaks, don't buy one, let those new ones rust. Anything. Figure out what is needed and get rid of all the waste. I think if you have kids you should not even have a TV. That new car every couple of years, forget it. All of this useless shit that fuels "the economy".

Think about it. You would have to make your life interesting, as they would no longer distract you.

Sometimes it is time for forward thinking. We are here, there is no going backwards, so what can we do ? Let the system collapse, it is going to anyway.

There is no way to go back. If we went to a system of real money there would be people shivering in the dark all over this country. There is nothing we can do but let the chips fall where they may. But getting ready for it is not a bad idea.

Money also fuels political power, therefore if the appeal of money is not as strong, they are not as strong. After a few developments we might actually get some power to the people if we play our cards right.

But most want a quick fix, well there is none. Therefore most don't even want to hear about it. I really was going to vote for Obama until I heard about him wanting to give a thousand dollar check to everyone. To me that is a pandering obscenity when spoken by a Presidential candidate. Even those checks pandered this year are obscene to me. Why ? You want to give it back now that we are pissed off ? Why didn't you just not take it in the first place ?

Idiots I swear.

But the people have a part in this. This might not sound like any fun but we can all do like I do is to stop the merry-go-round. Stop going to ballgames, amusement parks all that. Stop paying a hundred dollars a month for cable. When they shut regular TV off, don't buy the converter. Show them that we are sick of their shit. Cook instead of taking the family out to the tune of two hundred bucks. Find a good used anything you were going to buy new.

If alot of people did all these things there would be change.

But we can't, can we ? We can't do without.

T

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 1:51:38 PM   
popeye1250


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Msprudence, it is not the job of "government" to "lead" The People, it is the job of "government" to *Serve* The People.
That's why I don't get all this talk about "leadership".
I'm a free man, I neither need nor want anyone in "government" trying to "lead" me *anywhere!*

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 2:00:20 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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I've thought of a simple genius way to fix all of the arguments surrounding fiat money, the welfare state, and most economic debates.

I know you are dying to hear it.

Here it is.
Expansion of the money supply is obviously necessary, the problem lies in the process by which that new money is introduced into the economy. Not the money itself. Here's how you fix it, and also can eliminate in total if you wish the vast majority of direct monetary aid. You simply distribute the expanded money supply equally to all the citizens of the country, whenever, new fiat money is created.

This directly stimulates the economy, and is equitable, because every member of the society will get a equal share. So, we print a 100 billion new dollars(or poof it into existence on a computer), well then that get's distributed to all known citizens on the date of creation. This is a doable thing in this day and age.
Benefits of the system.
1. Government would no longer use printing up new money as a means of paying there bills, and the invisible tax would be no more.
2. It would benefit the poorest the most in proportion to there income. Thus reducing the need for administration of welfare programs.
3. Related to 1. But any revenues collected by the government would all have to be transparent taxation, giving the populace a better view of what is happening.
4. New money wouldn't benefit the big banks, and corporate friends of government as much.

I see little flaw in the plan, and the implementation is no more complicated than contracting Paypal.

Anyway, doing it that way, it gets rid of the incentive of the rich and powerful to over inflate the currency, because over inflating the currency would simply enrich the poorest. But they would not have the power to take money out of circulation once created. That would lead to other problems they could manufacture.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 2:02:37 PM   
Vendaval


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How about a competent manager, one who works with their staff, advisors and congress to solve problems and improve the country.

Is that so much to ask?


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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 2:55:10 PM   
orfunboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

i could go look up a bunch of quotes from famous people in history myself and get the complete opposite statements you did...what's your point?


I guess some people can't get their minds off the man. I notice it in other threads too. Doesn't matter what the subject is, they drag Bush in some how. At least this one started off that way, so it won't get high jacked.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 3:57:02 PM   
bipolarber


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On this site, it seems we are to conuct our political discourse as though the forum is some kind of adjunct to the Nightly Fucking News. Eeverything, according to some, MUST be backed up with FACTS. Never mind that the facts presented here are usually culled from internet sources. (and we all know how accurate those are.)

I approach this discussion as though the forum is more of an op/ed page. People are free to discuss their opinons, ther feelings, and try to make a case for them. But I hardly expect anything factual, or even vaugely persuasive from anyone on this site.

In the end, it comes down to judging for yourself who best represents you, and your views, and voting for that person. Nothing anyone else does, no name calling, no belittling or snarky comments from some asshole online is going to change anyone's POV... not one iota.

So, ultimately, all "political discourse" on this site, (like so many, many others) should be looked at as nothing more than entertainment. A political joke. (and a base one, at that.) Lile something off the pages of the Onion, or possibly "This Modern World"

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 4:30:18 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

But I look at the dialog and discourse of the framers of our nation, and the dialog now; and it makes me sad.


Here's a cause for optimism. Adams, Jefferson, and Lincoln understood tyranny, and feared it slipping in through the back-door of foreign policy via "war" and "national security." But, on the domestic side of the equation checks and balances are still in place --- so tyranny is at least checked at the front door.

The Judiciary can strike down unconstitutional laws. Congress can rewrite laws if the executive or judiciary get things wrong. We also have an appellate court system in place.

But there are no real checks and balances in the foreign policy sphere. Congress no longer has to declare war for us to be at war. After WWII, in fits of communist hysteria, the USA formed the CIA with the implicit assumption that it would operate without oversight, unbounded by our Constitution, and under the loose direction of the executive. Hence the USA got into the imperial meddling business in: Chile, IRAN, Guatamala, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Afghanistan, and Cuba et. al.

Our operations in these countries involved lies, bribery, murder, dictators, and manipulation. All these policies we check at the front door, but allow out the back.

The IRAQ war is par for the course. Its the enactment of US policy on a grander scale.

Conservatives would have you believe that without these methods we'd be overrun. We can only ask ourselves, would we? We can also ask ourselves what's the blow back we'll experience for the secret operations we've conducted?

In the end our opposition to the USSR made us just like them.





< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/7/2008 4:34:03 PM >

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 4:33:47 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

How about a competent manager, one who works with their staff, advisors and congress to solve problems and improve the country.

Is that so much to ask?



Vendaval, no, I don't think that's too much to ask at all.

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/7/2008 4:49:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

DK, I do not agree with you on this. We'll address that later should we both be willing.

UN, DK did make a point, that having the dollar value strictly tied to a precious metal will not stabilize it completely, but he might not be taking in completely what a fiat currency is.

The difference is that people can manipulate the value of the currency, that is alot harder when it is real money. I think we can all agree on that. The Federal Reserve has a big impact on that, and the Federal Reserve operates in the best interest of the Federal Reserve, like any other company. And for some reason they will not audit the Federal Reserve.

I hate trying to communicate with you. You write like Castro speaks. But if you've got salient objections and can keep things short I'll respond.

I know exactly what a fiat currency is and am pretty knowledgeable about monetary theory. So be careful what you claim about someone else.

As to it being harder to manipulate a hard currency than a fiat currency that is simply wrong and stupednously so. Peg the US dollar to any commidity and it can and will be manipulated. The simplest way, of course, is to buy up enough of the supply of the commodity that the value rises above the pegged value. People start turning in the currency for the commodity since they can then sell it for more on the world stage.  Imagine the dollar pegged to silver, a reasonable standard and one heavily sought back when this country used hard money. Then look into the events of March 27, 1980 and the period leading to that. Use search terms like Hunt brothers and silver thursday. Now would you care to speculate what would have happened to our economy due to these two mens actions if the dollar was pegged to some specific weight in silver?

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/8/2008 9:28:13 AM   
Termyn8or


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DK, I am well aware of the Hunt brothers, and the fact that they damnear went broke trying to do it.

But we used to have something called Fort Knox, in which the gold which backed the currency was held. It was not for sale.

I don't think we disagree as much as it seems. If the currency was absolutely pegged to a precious metal, of course the value could change. In fact silver is poised to skyrocket in coming years. So if it was pegged to silver, would the value of the dollar really increase ?

Let's put it this way, if silver skyrocketed, like many people think it will, would we see dramatic price reductions at the grocery store, the DIY, and at the gas pump ? No. With exceptions. Domestic production would keep an even keel, but the exceptions are many because we import almost everything that really matters in the economy.

We do build some things here, but most mass market items are imported these days. I would have to agree that if the dollar were pegged to gold be would be better off, but they fixed that problem in 1933. Now the value is as fluid as their interpretation of the Constitution.

As long as we have this rampant consumerism that fuels imports, the value of the dollar will fluctuate, and I think the main point on which we disagree is about how much it can fluctuate. You seem to think that anybody can just buy it up and make a huge change, but that takes alot of money. The way things are now it is done with the stroke of a pen. Perhaps the pen really is mightier than the sword.

Maybe what we need is a whole new standard. I don't know the solution, I just don't see a solution and I don't claim to. Once we became insolvent the dollar was worthless. It's value is declared, not real. If the dollar price for gold has changed, and the euro price for gold has not, it is not the gold which has changed in value, it is the dollar.

I will agree to disagree, but we really don't disagree on everything. And thank you for the flattery. Comparing me to Castro is flattery to me. I have no love for Castro (or Chavez-Frias for that matter), but he did maintain power withstanding the almighty US government. There is something to be said for that.

And noting the actual title of the thread, the following is not a hijack. Economics is an important part of politics.

Does anyone know of a country in this world that does not use a fiat currency ? I mean real money. Something which the value thereof is not set by Wall street types ? Is there one country out there somewhere ?

T

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RE: The evolution of political discourse - 8/8/2008 9:35:06 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Maybe what we need is a whole new standard. I don't know the solution, I just don't see a solution and I don't claim to. Once we became insolvent the dollar was worthless. It's value is declared, not real. If the dollar price for gold has changed, and the euro price for gold has not, it is not the gold which has changed in value, it is the dollar.



(my italics)

....money isn't real.  Oh i dont mean that the bank note in your wallet is a figment of your imagination, just that money is just the token in a token economy. It's an agreed upon fantasy, an abstract concept. Once we moved away from the barter economy we moved away from the idea that money represents a real thing. It's value has always been declared rather than intrinsic......we declared that we'd tie its theoretical value to gold, then we changed our mind.

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