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Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:11:55 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Just a stray thought I had as I was reading another post where a newcomer was pretty strongly advised to ignore the labels (generally sound advice).  As I was thinking about that, I realized that this is great advice for someone who has a feel for the general lay of the land.  I gave up on labels somewhere at about the 9 month mark.  But when I was brand new and knew nothing, the labels, even as flakey as they were, still provided some sort of lodestone to steer by.... some way to take on what was, at first, just an overwhelming mass of undistinguished "wierd stuff".  In fact, as I consider it, I think maybe a full third of my overall learning came about simply because it was obvious the labels were "wrong", but not obvious how.  Trying to resolve those issues led me down lots and lots of paths.

I guess I'm just wondering how much advice on these boards is written by people who are fairly well advanced and may not be fully remembering the road it took to get there.  In reverse, I frequently wonder how many newcomers read the postings of the prolific posters, most of whom are also very experienced and/or are in a long-term committed relationship, and say things like "Gosh, so that's what a M/s relationship looks like" without understanding that there are dozens of steps from here to there.

Thoughts? 
~jeff
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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:15:13 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Try to find your way in pretty much any place without refference points.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:17:58 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I know when I started out I was told, in no uncertain circumstances that labels are essentially useless. My Mentor said, and I quote, "No single term can be used that would adequately describe what I am, and to pick one just to make things easier on everyone else is just not my style."  Thats all labels really are, they are buzz words used so that in mixed company someone has a basic idea of your stand on things. I dont use them unless I am writing or discussing somewhere where it is easier to generalize than it is to explain.
I hope some of the ones reading my posts look at my relationshops and say "Hey thats what a BDSM relationship looks like." Mine are far from perfect, we run into obsticles, have disagreements and time apart. The boys dont serve all the time but we are friends and patners outside and in. There are tons of steps and I am still taking them all, all the time.

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

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VampiresLair

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:24:59 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think that happens quite a bit.  I post from the perspective that I have today.  I try to keep my posts balanced and reflect that where I am today took 37 years to get to, but I don't focus on my past especially the negative parts of it.  As a result, someone may not get an accurate reflection of some of the pain I have dealt with. 

With the way our life has been for the last seven months, I imagine that my posts have not shown a lot of the struggles we have gone through.  All three of us expected to face different issues when I moved in and frankly, it has been a cake walk.  We are all so much in sync with the way we desire to live our life that things are just simple.  It took a lot of work to get here though.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:25:09 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		I think part of the issue is that people seem hard wired to do labels.  Life is a lot easier in a simple, black and white world, and much of 'survival evolution' is easier if you define things as "dangerous predator", "prey", "looks dangerous but really isn't, etc.    Some of that instant flight/fight judgement became ingrained in our mind, so we continue to try and treat the world using simple labels.

But people are a lot more complicated than that.   

Thank god for diversity.  Life is a lot more fun this way.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:26:54 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Well... I don't think it is good advise to disregard labels... nor do I think it is wise to regard labels as universal.....  I think a person needs to find their own labels... and accept that others are doing the same.

As far as the point of your OP.... Individuals post from their given perspective.... and sometimes that perspective will resonate with a  person today or maybe tomorrow or maybe never.    I don't think any post is particularly complete or all encompassing....  sometimes what is said is right for just one person... and that is great for the one person.  It is not popularity contest in my view.... and I don't go posting hoping that everyone gets it.... ... All I can do... is attempt to communicate my particular thoughts as best I can... and let the chips fall as they may.

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:33:03 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		The only label I choose to show is human.  For me people are people regardless of title or how they see themselves.  I never think of myself as a role model and don't expect to follow some role model who I might admire online.  Every dynamic is going to be different.  The goal for me is to go my own way and not become a sheeple.  I cannot even remember a time in my life I wanted to be like this person or that. 
Well.. I would kind of like to have grown up blond, tall, and stacked, but those were unrealistic ideals.
Kyst

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 9:47:28 PM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		greetings to all,

OP, sounds like it was one of my recent posts you read *laughs*.  If it was, in fact, my post, I was posting from a perspective of a person who had tried and tried to live up to a given label (for the past couple of years, believe it or not) and then realised that the label I tried so hard to attain was one I was already living.

When I started out in the BDSM scene (around 8 years ago now) labels were very important to me.  I would pigeon hole myself into the one that fit "me" the most, and tell others about myself using whichever one it was at the time.  I wanted *that* badly to "belong" to something, to feel as if I were part of something.

Since then, I've realised that I am merely who I am.  Whatever people choose to label me as is, honestly, their choice.  I know my self, and I know where my desires are strongest.

I no longer feel a need to "live up" to whatever label is tossed out there to describe me.

I am happy in my service, and happy with my life.  I want for nothing.

well wishes,

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 10:08:49 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, so I get the posters so far who have said "labels aren't accurate".  It is a given that no single word except "human" can really capture a human.  For the BDSM labels, the problem is made even worse by the fact that there is no canonical source for the definitions -- and a word without a definition is simply a sound.  What I am wondering though is for a newcomer, would better advice be something akin to:

Here's a bunch of concepts, "slave", "sub", "pet", etc. etc.  Be aware that these concepts don't have universal application and certainly YOU as an individual will be captured be fragments of several of these labels.  But here, at least, are some starting points for your own introspection.
 
Or, drilling down into one of those concepts...

Slave:  This label generally denotes a submissive who has, in some way, broader boundaries than most.  For some writers, the slave is differentiated from submissive by the motivation of the person rather than the boundaries.  Where exactly the dividing line is between sub/slave is a wide open debate with no answer likely to ever be forth coming. 
 
So with a definition like that, I am indicating the fact that the concept exists.  I'm indicating that discussions about boundaries are important.  I'm indicating that there is a spectrum of submission and at least one axis can be defined by broadness of boundaries (not an obvious thing when you are brand spanking new).  I'm indicating that motivation is potentially an important thing to consider.  Granted, it's not much, but god I would've loved to have heard that when I was new.  For bonus points, I'd have loved to have seen following it a small handful of some of the most popular "dividing lines".  The only one I got for the longest time was "no boundaries" and TPE which I immediately rejected as impossible in a literal sense.  A few samples following that main definition (maybe 2 boundary based ones, and 2 motivation based ones) would've filled me in fairly well about what was going on with sub/slave and, more importantly, helped me to understand myself in relation to some sort of existing body of knowledge, patchwork as it is.

Heck, maybe I'll do that.  While you can't define "slave" in any meaningful way, you certainly can do an informational essay on the concept and it's current state in the community.  Perhaps it's not the labels themselves which are so useless as the way we use them?

(in reply to XaviersXian)
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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 10:23:13 PM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		Great thread!

I remember one of my first posts. I was trying to figure out what the difference between a sub and a slave was, and got a whole lot of "ignore labels" and "label yourself" posts. I wasn't trying to figure out what to label myself. I was trying to figure out what the hell everyone else meant!

Somewhere in there, someone eventually answered the question, and also told me how to research in the future. Both helpful!

Labels helped me understand wtf everyone was talking about, and maybe helped me to communicate better in the language being used around me. As long as labels don't turn in to pigeon holes, so what?

_____________________________

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--nobody's resident anything.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 10:34:32 PM   
califsue


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/2/2008
Status: offline 		It is a great question really. I think labels give newbies a guideline only as a way to try and determine where they fit. I like the idea of a concept because when you are new and exploring one truly does not know and because of all the variations of what the different terms mean to the individuals. I always felt submissive fit me but in my current relationship with Master he considers me his slave based on his definition and for me it works. Should it not work out for Us...and I was to look for another partner I would think of myself as a submissive not as a slave. 

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 11:15:23 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps it's not the labels themselves which are so useless as the way we use them?


Labels are fine as far as they go.

I'm trying to remember where I read the story about a young Japanese kid whose grandfather was a strict adherent to the old ways, to the extent that he refused to use a specific name for certain personal items...he would merely gesture toward a pair of socks, and say 'Bring me that'. The kids would have their fun by pretending to not know what 'that' meant in an attempt to get him to actually say the mundane term...
With no labels, everything would become 'that'.

So it is useful at some point to create a shared concept in the mind of another person by using a label, like 'lifestyle', 'Master', switch', and so forth.

Problems seem to arise when the labels are wielded as though they themselves were of some weight or value, or assigned to ego-related things which are outside the scope of the original useage.




And BTW, great thread.

(in reply to califsue)
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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 11:22:01 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
With the way our life has been for the last seven months, I imagine that my posts have not shown a lot of the struggles we have gone through.  All three of us expected to face different issues when I moved in and frankly, it has been a cake walk.  We are all so much in sync with the way we desire to live our life that things are just simple.  It took a lot of work to get here though.


*claps*
God, I just love hearing things like this among all the clatter of "look what this idiot dom/sub did".  With all sincerity... good for you and yours.

For the record, I wasn't so much concerned with "struggles" as "process".  One does not burst onto the scene, full blown with all of one's submission or dominance fully in control and ready to go.  I consider myself a "natural dominant" in that I will default to a dominant role in almost any situation if that slot is open or being poorly filled.  But that only means that I have some basic qualifications to become a good dom for my wife. For those of us who are new, there is a role acquisition process that must be played out.  I'm beginning to think that there is too much focus on end state and not enough on process.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 11:38:48 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
As far as the point of your OP.... Individuals post from their given perspective.... and sometimes that perspective will resonate with a  person today or maybe tomorrow or maybe never.    I don't think any post is particularly complete or all encompassing....  sometimes what is said is right for just one person... and that is great for the one person.  It is not popularity contest in my view.... and I don't go posting hoping that everyone gets it.... ... All I can do... is attempt to communicate my particular thoughts as best I can... and let the chips fall as they may.

*nods*  Yup.  But more and more, I'm coming to see that two of the VERY important "perspectives" at play are:
  1. How long have you been in your current role in general?
  2. How long have you been in your current role with your current partner(s)?

Those two things will certainly have vast implications on how a given person perceive things and understanding that difference will certainly aid knowledge transfer (assuming that is the intent of a post between an old salt and a newcomer).

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/2/2008 11:45:05 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

For the most part, I find BDSM labels roughly as useful as the terms "male" and "female". Usually it means one was born with a penis or overies but sometimes it doesn't. A lot of men like sports and a lot of women like shopping - but a lot don't. I wouldn't suggest ignoring them completely but take them with some salt.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/3/2008 3:24:42 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Like so much else, the labels are not "Wrong" it is how they are 'used' that is often wrong.

I am a Master...that is a lable.... BUT it is a broad statement, doesn't give much about the specifics, about how that is put into practice. But it does get both people into the same broad ballpark when opening communications. It is a startpoint for further clarification, it is not an endpoint in itself.

Where such labels are used wrongly is that people often assum stating "I am a Master" (or Dom, Top, bottom, sub, slave) is an endpoint, they assume their own definition applies and that is all that needs saying.

All that lable means is that I am suited to the Dominant position in a high level Dynamic within a reationship and that what I seek is someone suited to the submissive position in a high level Dynamic within a relationship.

The lable allows those seeking a low level Dynamic to recognise there is no compatability and move on swiftly. Someone labeling themself as slave however would react by looking closer at other lables, other aspects which would make for compatability.

Also of course the problem with those who say they don't use labels... is they continue to speak... language is ALL labels, labels that convey an idea or concept from one person to another.


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This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/3/2008 7:08:43 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I've used this analogy before on the boards when the topic of labels has come up.  If you've heard it before, I apologize.

There are a lot of folks on the boards who don't particularly care for labels.   I understand their reasons for their way of thinking.  Still, you almost have to ask yourself the question of, where would we be without them?  We have to have some kind of starting point to get at least a basic concept.  We have to have some kind of way to identify who we are and what we are looking for.  We'd be rather lost without some kind of basic definition.  There has to at least be a starting place.  I've found this example to be the best that I've come up with so far.

Suppose you have decided that you are going to go to the store to buy yourself some chicken soup.  Sounds easy enough.  In your mind, you have your idea of what chicken soup is supposed to be.  Imagine how difficult it would be to make your purchase if when you got to the store, none of the cans had a label on them.  All of the cans looked exactly the same on the outside, with no clue as to their content.  Without a label, there would be no way of knowing a can of chicken soup when compared with a can of baked beans.

Take the concept a step farther.  Let's suppose that you and I both go to the store and buy a can of chicken soup.  When we compare one type of chicken soup to the other, we might have some significant differences.  Sure, each chicken soup probably has some commonalities.  I'm sure they both have yellowish liquid with some kind of noodle in it.  What if there are a lot of differences, too?  What if your bowl of chicken soup looks like some generic rip off of Campbell's and Mine is something that looks like the kind that was made from scratch?  Does yours have big pieces of meat in it?  How about slices of carrots?  What about parsley for flavor?  Is there a difference in the noodles?  There's no denying that we both have chicken soup, but they could be vastly different from the other.

Some folks have had longer than others to decide what their kind of chicken soup should be.  They aren't saying that your soup isn't right for you, but they know what they envision their kind of chicken soup would look like.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/3/2008 7:48:53 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		As I've said in other venues, I think that what we call ourselves and how our experiences color that is an important part of our progress. Labels have a place -- but so do the posts telling people to ignore the labels. For a beginner, the labels can be a comfortable place to 'take off' from. So can things like long hard-limit lists and extended communications before meeting.

As time goes on, and WIITID becomes part of my life, instead of a new and overwhelming "sideline" to my life, I am likely to realize that the "labels" don't fit my situation... so I start looking to see why, and figure out what I want to do about it. It is at this point that the posts about ignoring the labels come in so handy -- just the realization that we -can- ignore the labels may be enough to allow someone who feels like xhe doesn't 'fit' anywhere to feel free to create that niche that is right for hir.

In the same way, having somewhat common ground on which to discuss topics makes labels 'convenient' for communication like the forums. After we've been here a while, I think many of us realize that the scope of the ways we interact and live is too broad for any label to fit -- even huge labels like BDSM, etc. At the same time, we may also have had time to develop one or two relationships, and to have realized that even -bad- relationships can shape us and help us to define ourselves.

Eventually, a person may reach that point where labels become completely unnecessary. They may still hang around out of pure enjoyment, but it becomes understood that the label's meaning is something intimate, between those who are involved in this particular dynamic.

Just as an example... I don't like to be called "Mistress"... I prefer "Ma'am" for everyday, or "Divine One" or, from one of my own, "my Goddess" works really well for that heavy-duty piercing scene... Hearing "my Goddess" fly out of one of my toys' mouth when I place that needle... Oh, yeah... I can handle that! My Darling, though -- she gets off on hearing one of our toys or pets speak that "Mistress" word. Which of us is 'right'? Hell, that's easy -- both of us are, as long as that kneeling, quivering bit of living flesh at our feet is ours, knows that he is ours, and relishes that as much as we do. Hell... we don't even quibble (much) when, in the intensity of the moment, he calls me "Mistress", or moans "my Goddess" to my Darling.

Calla Firestorm

(Edited to ad that it just struck me... the irony that while I'm writing this post, the music playing on my MyKink playlist is "The Unforgiven" by Metallica.... "You labeled me, I label you... so I'm dubbed The Unforgiven")

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/3/2008 7:54:35 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/3/2008 8:43:15 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		This is a point that many bring up when discussing labels.  How do you know what it is if there is no label attached?  How can you shop if you don't know the contents of the can.
I understand that, however, people are not cans.  When you get to know someone you are in effect looking inside the can and getting a general view of the contents.  When you stir it up you can see if there are big noodles or little ones.  You can see if there are veggies inside or if there are only 2 main ingredients.  You can taste it and see if it is seasoned to your liking.
Just seeing my name online shows a can.
Seeing my body in person reveals it is probably female.
Talking to me reveals the basic contents.
Engaging in conversation shows what kind of orientation I have.
Getting to know me stirs up the pot and may even lead to a taste.

Everything is a process.  We are not labeless cans.  We are humans who, if you engage us in conversation, will sometimes reveal our recipe.

My problem with labels is that for many people it makes shopping a quick stop and grab the first chicken soup they see.

In regular life I can see if someone is male or female.  I don't need to know if they are dom or sub until they mean more to me.  Labeling is too dismissive, imo. It is as if your opinion should not matter unless you fit in this role or that.  Whereas I like to hear from all points of view from people who have different ideas, cause whether they are dom or sub should not matter if the idea is great.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Suppose you have decided that you are going to go to the store to buy yourself some chicken soup.  Sounds easy enough.  In your mind, you have your idea of what chicken soup is supposed to be.  Imagine how difficult it would be to make your purchase if when you got to the store, none of the cans had a label on them.  All of the cans looked exactly the same on the outside, with no clue as to their content.  Without a label, there would be no way of knowing a can of chicken soup when compared with a can of baked beans.

Take the concept a step farther.  Let's suppose that you and I both go to the store and buy a can of chicken soup.  When we compare one type of chicken soup to the other, we might have some significant differences.  Sure, each chicken soup probably has some commonalities.  I'm sure they both have yellowish liquid with some kind of noodle in it.  What if there are a lot of differences, too?  What if your bowl of chicken soup looks like some generic rip off of Campbell's and Mine is something that looks like the kind that was made from scratch?  Does yours have big pieces of meat in it?  How about slices of carrots?  What about parsley for flavor?  Is there a difference in the noodles?  There's no denying that we both have chicken soup, but they could be vastly different from the other.


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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 2:53:55 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I'm a scientist. I firmly hold that labels are valid communication tools. You have to know what it means in order, at least to you, to declare you think it means something different, too. So, even those who don't like them have to know them to reject them.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

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