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RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 3:02:30 PM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		I made up my own category ... barbarian.

The ravished girls were led away to marriage;
Their very shame made them more beautiful.
And when one struggled hard against her captor,
He carried her away in eager arms,
And said: "Why spoil your pretty eyes by weeping?
Your father took your mother, I take you!"


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 3:55:48 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		IMO the problem starts when you begin to think that you really know what the label means.   I think it was Gertrude Stein who said "A rose is a rose is a rose." But she would also have said that once you name a thing, that is when the learning stops (that is actually a paraphrase of something she did say, but I do not remember the original wording and it's not easily available so I'm stuck with that).

The first actual mentor I had in all things BDSM began her own journey as a slave in the Gorean tradition before becoming a Mistress in her own right, so my understanding of protocols and such are tinged by that up to and including the idea that 'Master/Mistress' was more or less synonymous with 'Dominant.'  It was not til I got to CM that I realized there was a serious debate on that subject.  However, once the meaning of the label came into question, my learning curve increased rapidly, which I suppose proves Stein correct (not very scientific, but then I am not a scientist, I'm an artist).  My sub (or 'subs' if you include the few others I occasionally Dom online) calls me "Master" and I admit I like it more than "Sir."  For me, nowadays, each time I hear her use the word it reminds me of what it is I strive to be.  So the fact she calls me "Master" makes me one.  Now maybe that seems backward to some people, but it really works for us. Each to their own preferences.

I am glad for the path that led me here, and the ambiguity of the labels.  If I had come to the BDSM 'lifestyle' (another ambiguity about which there seems to be debate, though that is a debate I have not yet examined well - it is on my list, though) by a different road, I suppose I would be using a different title, but I wonder if I would strive so mightily to live up to "Dom" or "Sir" as I do now with "Master."

I still have trouble with the capitalization fetish.  I will occasionally use it, but it still feels pretentious, to me (more than the use of the label 'Master'). Why that is I have not yet sat down to puzzle out but I am sure when I take the time to do so it will be illuminating, hehe.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 8/4/2008 3:56:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 4:29:54 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

This is a point that many bring up when discussing labels.  How do you know what it is if there is no label attached?  How can you shop if you don't know the contents of the can.
I understand that, however, people are not cans.  When you get to know someone you are in effect looking inside the can and getting a general view of the contents.  When you stir it up you can see if there are big noodles or little ones.  You can see if there are veggies inside or if there are only 2 main ingredients.  You can taste it and see if it is seasoned to your liking.
Just seeing my name online shows a can.
Seeing my body in person reveals it is probably female.
Talking to me reveals the basic contents.
Engaging in conversation shows what kind of orientation I have.
Getting to know me stirs up the pot and may even lead to a taste.

Everything is a process.  We are not labeless cans.  We are humans who, if you engage us in conversation, will sometimes reveal our recipe.

My problem with labels is that for many people it makes shopping a quick stop and grab the first chicken soup they see.

In regular life I can see if someone is male or female.  I don't need to know if they are dom or sub until they mean more to me.  Labeling is too dismissive, imo. It is as if your opinion should not matter unless you fit in this role or that.  Whereas I like to hear from all points of view from people who have different ideas, cause whether they are dom or sub should not matter if the idea is great.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Suppose you have decided that you are going to go to the store to buy yourself some chicken soup.  Sounds easy enough.  In your mind, you have your idea of what chicken soup is supposed to be.  Imagine how difficult it would be to make your purchase if when you got to the store, none of the cans had a label on them.  All of the cans looked exactly the same on the outside, with no clue as to their content.  Without a label, there would be no way of knowing a can of chicken soup when compared with a can of baked beans.

Take the concept a step farther.  Let's suppose that you and I both go to the store and buy a can of chicken soup.  When we compare one type of chicken soup to the other, we might have some significant differences.  Sure, each chicken soup probably has some commonalities.  I'm sure they both have yellowish liquid with some kind of noodle in it.  What if there are a lot of differences, too?  What if your bowl of chicken soup looks like some generic rip off of Campbell's and Mine is something that looks like the kind that was made from scratch?  Does yours have big pieces of meat in it?  How about slices of carrots?  What about parsley for flavor?  Is there a difference in the noodles?  There's no denying that we both have chicken soup, but they could be vastly different from the other.




Your name or nic is the label you chose or was chosen for you to identify you, to make you different then everyone else... otherwise you would just be "guest". You "label" yourself "female". And in time, for those that get to know you, they, or you, may expand that label to include "pretty", or "intelligent" or "useless" ... one never knows. A label is simply a starting point that can be expanded on, refined to match each individual. If I am looking specifically for chicken soup I don't want to spend an hour staring at beef stew. I don't want to take "beef stew" home with me only to find out that I'm allergic to some of it's contents. I'm adventurous but I'm not THAT adventurous. I openly LABEL myself as female and dominant. Beyond that... ok, open the damn can and see if you like the contents, and if you don't, fine, but at least you got the right catagory!!
 
Does it really have to be explained to everyone in such simple terms? There seems to be a lot of people that claim to have a real problem with labels yet they continue to use a variety of nics (aka labels to help identify them from other posters) and they continue to label themselves as one gender or another... what does any of that matter... just open the can and see if you like the contents!!! Like I said before, with out some sort of commonly understood language we just as well go back to drawing pictures on the cave walls.
 
Jewel

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 4:36:31 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact



Suppose you have decided that you are going to go to the store to buy yourself some chicken soup.  Sounds easy enough.  In your mind, you have your idea of what chicken soup is supposed to be.  Imagine how difficult it would be to make your purchase if when you got to the store, none of the cans had a label on them.  All of the cans looked exactly the same on the outside, with no clue as to their content.  Without a label, there would be no way of knowing a can of chicken soup when compared with a can of baked beans.





Ok, off-topic here -- I read this and had this really weird flashback to this store my parents used to take us to when my dad was out of work during the economic crash during the end of the 70s. It was this huge store where everything was generic -- rows upon rows upon rows of cans with white labels and black writing -- no thing else... it was seriously freaky.

CFB


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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/4/2008 5:22:22 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		So.. are you saying that before getting involved with someone you dont talk to them first to see if their tastes, limits, desires, dont match up with yours? A male or female, dominant or submissive will do simply because it states it on the box?  You don't need to know more before bringing one home? 
I am female.  I am submissive when and if it is inspired from me.  And I am human with thoughts and ideas which stand on their own merit IF people choose to look them over.  If not, no biggie. 
Personally, I like to talk to people as people.  I dont care if it is dom, sub, male or female.  Their value to me does not changed based on a label.
But then,,, I am of the old school of people who met before taking things further.  I don't view that hour spent talking as a waste of my valuable time.  To me, getting to know them, dom, sub, what ever, is not time wasted. It is time spent savoring the aroma.  Instant connections will never do it for me.
People are people.
If I wanted more from them, it would be based on their conversations with me as people.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
 If I am looking specifically for chicken soup I don't want to spend an hour staring at beef stew. I don't want to take "beef stew" home with me only to find out that I'm allergic to some of it's contents. I'm adventurous but I'm not THAT adventurous.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 5:29:36 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

So.. are you saying that before getting involved with someone you dont talk to them first to see if their tastes, limits, desires, dont match up with yours? A male or female, dominant or submissive will do simply because it states it on the box?  You don't need to know more before bringing one home? 
I am female.  I am submissive when and if it is inspired from me.  And I am human with thoughts and ideas which stand on their own merit IF people choose to look them over.  If not, no biggie. 
Personally, I like to talk to people as people.  I dont care if it is dom, sub, male or female.  Their value to me does not changed based on a label.
But then,,, I am of the old school of people who met before taking things further.  I don't view that hour spent talking as a waste of my valuable time.  To me, getting to know them, dom, sub, what ever, is not time wasted. It is time spent savoring the aroma.  Instant connections will never do it for me.
People are people.
If I wanted more from them, it would be based on their conversations with me as people.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
 If I am looking specifically for chicken soup I don't want to spend an hour staring at beef stew. I don't want to take "beef stew" home with me only to find out that I'm allergic to some of it's contents. I'm adventurous but I'm not THAT adventurous.



What I'm saying is that before I get involved with someone I like to know if there is even a possibility... for instance, a female (yeah, I consider that a label) that is absolutely straight (a "refined" label) is most likely not going to be interested in an intimate relationship with me and I won't insult her by pretending that's a possibility. A male submissive (also a "refined" label) that happens to also be a cross-dresser (refining the already refined) also wouldn't interest me in a greater capacity then friendship.
 
I'm allergic to mushrooms (I'm trying to keep this simple), so when I find the can "labeled" chicken soup, I am then going to look at the ingredients to make sure it doesn't contain mushrooms. If it doesn't contain mushrooms I will then delve deeper into the investigation of said can and see if it contains any other "ingredients" that I dislike or just plain won't eat... from there I look to see if it has any special requirements.... each step of the way I decide if it is indeed the right chicken soup.... but at least I know that I am staring at "CHICKEN SOUP"!!
 
If I were here, on a personals type website, that happens to be a BDSM personals type website (damn, those labels just keep popping up, don't they???) and I were looking to just make friends with the entire freakin' world... then I would see you point... well, almost... but I'm NOT, I'm here, like soooo many others, looking for a partner (well, I was anyway.. I found) then I would most sincerely like to know if there is any compatibility at all. And to do that I look at labels!!!!
 
If I were starving and not in the slightest bit picky about what I eat then no labels in the world would be fine... just go grab a can and start exploring. But I am picky, I'm not starving and since I am diabetic and have at least one food allergy then no labels means that some of the crap in those cans can do me a great deal of harm. In the same respect, I don't want to piss off, alienate or otherwise insult others because I don't think "labels" mean a damn thing.
 
I would love to just tell you that "labels" like submissive, slave, dominant, top, bottom and all the others are simply starting points that can be and are refined down to fit each individual and your theory of getting to know them is just a way of you discovering how their chosen label is refined to fit and better describe themselves, but I think that would go over like a fart in church.
 
And I too like to talk to people as people, but if words are the only thing I have to go on, if I'm not standing there looking at them, then I INSIST that words have meanings. You can tell me that you are a female and for all I know female means a 450 pound sweaty guy in his bvd's to you... under the premise that words/labels have no meaning or can mean whatever you want them to mean. And since "female" is a label that you insist on using (I guess that one hasn't made it to your shit list yet) then perhaps you should define it so that the rest of the group can argue over it's validity as well.
 
Jewel.... finished with this insanity... rant away.

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 5:44:50 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think the difference may be that I dont use online venues to find compatible mates.  Nearly every one who emails me on the other side is female (and I am not bi), and submissive (and I am not a top).  I see them as buddies and it will never be more.  They are friends to chat with and that is all that is important to me.  I like their ideas, their personalities and their minds which I have gotten to know over time. 
I would love to find a dominant male.  But I dont dismiss anyone based on the fact I will never lay down naked with them.  Online for me will always just be a place to chat with people who live somewhere else, it is not my hunting ground. 
And as I said in the beginning, what I dont like about labels is that too many people use them to dismiss someone without a thought. 
It is something I have observed over and over.  A sub will pose a question and though 4 submissives will say, black is black, the sub will not agree until some dominant says black is black. 
If I waited for that I wouldnt have found a few really nice women to chat with, even though I will never lay down with them, beat them, or let them beat me.
Kyst

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 5:55:28 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I think the difference may be that I dont use online venues to find compatible mates.  Nearly every one who emails me on the other side is female (and I am not bi), and submissive (and I am not a top).  I see them as buddies and it will never be more.  They are friends to chat with and that is all that is important to me.  I like their ideas, their personalities and their minds which I have gotten to know over time. 
I would love to find a dominant male.  But I dont dismiss anyone based on the fact I will never lay down naked with them.  Online for me will always just be a place to chat with people who live somewhere else, it is not my hunting ground. 
And as I said in the beginning, what I dont like about labels is that too many people use them to dismiss someone without a thought. 
It is something I have observed over and over.  A sub will pose a question and though 4 submissives will say, black is black, the sub will not agree until some dominant says black is black. 
If I waited for that I wouldnt have found a few really nice women to chat with, even though I will never lay down with them, beat them, or let them beat me.
Kyst


Sorry, I had to..
 
So what you are saying is that you dismissed the commonality of language and the meanings of the words used in that language over a bunch of ignorant people? I would think it would be easier to dismiss the ignorance instead of adding to it. I can't even fathom that kind of mindset... wow. That's amazing to me. Just... wow.
 
Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 6:03:25 AM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I did good before discovering all the labels.  When I discovered the lifestyle it was a matter of learning the labels and applying those that best applied.   I was not trying to shove myself into some stereotype jello mold of labels.

Sure there are dozens of steps along the way, but that's life itself.

Apply the labels that best fit yourself and don't try to fit into the labels.  That's my advice to anybody new.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 9:06:58 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		No.  What I am saying is labels are meaningless to ME.  They don't determine anything until I shake up that can.  If other people need a label whoopie.  If they ask me for my generic label I am female, submissive when there is no choice for me, and otherwise just a regular human.
I rarely ask my buddies what their label says.  I will always prefer to see humans as humans.
<g> Thats MY mindset.  I don't care what other people need until I care about them.
Here.. I use my mindset, and do not rely on someone else.  I can't even think of wow just wow that people don't comply with what I believe.  That would give them too much place in my life.
Kyst

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 9:08:22 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Jewel, this thing of you and I thinking alike has gotten almost uncanny.  Speaking of cans, I'm going back to the chicken soup.  Has it occurred to anyone that the definition of that chicken soup changed over time?  It might have started out as a basic thing, and then evolved.  In searching for that perfect recipe, you might have tried adding some things and taking other things away.  Some things suit your taste better.  Other things make it less appealing.

Some folks are perfectly content to run to the store, grab a can of Campbell's, and toss it in a bowl.  They eat it.  They aren't hungry anymore.  Task complete.

Others will spend an entire day attempting a culinary delight.  Boiling the chicken, making their own noodles, cutting the vegetables, and adding the spices.  As the soup cooks, they might even taste it once in a while, deciding to add this or balance out that.  To some that bowl of soup as a work of art.  Something that is always a work in process to make it better or to find the perfect recipe. 

When I started doing this, I had a basic concept.  Pretty much, I had a bowl of Campbell's.  My own personal recipe has grown and evolved over time.  There's been a lot added to it for flavor and to suit My personal tastes.  I'm not saying anyone else's soup isn't really soup.  I'm saying Mine suits My particular palate.   I've even found a couple of people along the way who enjoy the same soup that I do.

Since it's noon in My time zone, enjoy your lunch everyone.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 9:32:28 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

No.  What I am saying is labels are meaningless to ME.  They don't determine anything until I shake up that can.  If other people need a label whoopie.  If they ask me for my generic label I am female, submissive when there is no choice for me, and otherwise just a regular human.
I rarely ask my buddies what their label says.  I will always prefer to see humans as humans.
<g> Thats MY mindset.  I don't care what other people need until I care about them.
Here.. I use my mindset, and do not rely on someone else.  I can't even think of wow just wow that people don't comply with what I believe.  That would give them too much place in my life.
Kyst


There you have it ladies and gentlemen!! That is the point we have been trying to make all along!! Male, female, submissive, dominant, top and bottom are all "generic" labels!!! It really is that easy!
 
I'm not amazed that you or anyone else doesn't comply with what I believe, honestly I couldn't give a shit. What amazed me was your reasoning for dismissing the use of labels... well, certain labels anyway.

quote:

what I dont like about labels is that too many people use them to dismiss someone without a thought. 
It is something I have observed over and over.  A sub will pose a question and though 4 submissives will say, black is black, the sub will not agree until some dominant says black is black.  


Of course there is the possibility that the sub that posted the question has reason to believe that the other subs answering the posts are people she really either can't believe or have proven themselves to be unreliable in the past and the dominant has (again... just a possibility) proven themself to be reliable? Or maybe they're just ignorant. Either way.... Like I said, it's amazing to me that you... or anyone for that matter, would base your opinion of a certain word, phrase or LABEL on the interaction of a person(s) that sounds... well... ignorant. That would be like me saying I refuse to eat chicken soup because I've seen too many people burn their tongues on it.
 
LP... yeah, scary ain't it? We really do need to stop picking on chicken soup... the next thing you know there will be a thread about people that pick on canned soup... Canned soup? Is it better or worse then homemade soup?
 
lmao
 
Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Regarding Labels - 8/5/2008 9:48:38 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

And as I said in the beginning, what I dont like about labels is that too many people use them to dismiss someone without a thought.  


You know, you are right. 
 
When i was looking for a partner i was looking for a Dominant Male Biker, more specifically one who rode Harleys. And anybody who contacted me looking for a submissive who did not meet my criteria, that is, anybody who could not honestly label themselves a dominant male biker, i dismissed without a thought.
 
Why, you ask? Because that is what i was looking for. Now only one dominant male biker was the right one for me, but just imagine how much harder my search would have been if i had started my search looking at say, transgendered gay male submissives.
 
Not much of a chance of finding a dominant male biker who labeled himself transgendered gay male sub now is there?
 
If anybody just wants to be friends, i am always ready to chat no matter their label. Even then it helps to know how they identify so i can be supportive of their circumstances

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(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 33
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