RE: Is it fraud? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

smartalex -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 6:28:56 PM)

As I said, lying is a waste of time, because regardless, they're going to pull the credit report. If you know your score & tell the lender, the lender can discuss potential problems with you before pulling your report. That was my advice to someone who had questionable credit--knowing her score & what else is on the report will help her as she talks to lenders, but only if she's honest.

Also, the credit offers aren't a result of your credit score; in fact, most of them have some itty bitty print that says you will need to pass a credit check. In the US, if someone pulls your credit report without your permission, they can suffer some harsh consequences along with whatever credit bureau gave it to them. Each credit check has the potential to lower your score.

There are not numerous questions when applying for a home loan. I just did this yesterday. I gave them my salary, my social security number, and my work phone. That's it. The rest of the information they got. . .from the credit report.

It may be different in the UK, but that's how it works in the US, where the OP is.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 7:34:56 PM)

Sure smart. But like I said they cannot check your income. If the IRS gives out that information you can sue them for a hundred grand and win. That would make a nice balloon payment eh ?

And most employers in the US will not give out detailed info on your earnings.

What I am not sure of is if a student loan shows up on your credit. I mean the deferred ones from the government. The ones financed by the school certainly do.

A lending institution also can share info with other lending institutions, as long as the same level of confidentiality is maintained, so you can't go reporting your income as this to one and that to another.

Rule number one, don't lie.

Rule number two, if you are going to break rule number one only do it for something that is worth it, and don't do it if you can get caught.

Kapeesh ?

T



lighthearted -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 7:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I'd say the payments are going to end up being anywhere from 5 to 7 hundred a month payback.  At least if it is based upon what all of my friends had to pay back.



when I was repaying my student loans (yes!  people actually do that!), one nasty little surprise I was unprepared for was the payment hikes.  looking back, they seemed very arbitrary...and I fought against them, but they were pretty non-negotiable.  fortunately about 5 yrs after college I was able to pay off the balance in one lump sum, but I recall that at the time, it was more money than I was paying in rent.



smartalex -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 9:27:36 PM)

Term, they most assuredly do verify income. They don't get that info from the IRS, they get it with your cooperation from your employer. I believe that they verify employment through a phone call--I haven't gotten to that step yet, and I think that the privacy laws have changed since I bought this house (the one I'm currently in). But I know that they're verifying my income through pay stubs and previous tax returns, not just because I told them I made enough money and I look trustworthy.

As I said, I am currently in negotiations to buy my home. I'm not working on a memory of what I did last year or previous, but what I did yesterday & have to fax to the lender to verify. Pay stubs and last year's tax return. If I were to want to include alimony & child-support payments, they'd want a copy of the court order.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 10:35:21 PM)

Get smarter. You tell your employer to go ahead and verify employment and for how long, and if they ask what you make, he should say "Sorry, I will not discuss that on the phone". Any employer with a brain or a good lawyer would already know that.

That would work out well for me, three years at my current job and well over ten at the last, and left on good terms. I could get a million dollar house if I wanted, but I have no desire for that and I would not want the payments. You can lie, and if it gets you a lower rate or something, great. But if you buy something you can't pay for you lose.

I can get damnear anything I want, and I might consider it if I go into business. But I better be damn sure I will be able to make the payments. I knew two guy almost bought a bar, they were on fucking welfare ! But they figured they could make the payment from the income. The loan was approved and the check was ready, but they got into a big argument. That's brothers for ya.

But they almost really had it. I know the laws have changed since then, in fact both of them are dead. But you know what they say about doing business with family. Just don't.

The olman had a few things to say to them. "You get the bar, how are you going to stock it ? You need money for that you know". And they didn't have it.

So you can do whatever you want, but what to do with it. That is the question.

T



smartalex -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/30/2008 11:09:09 PM)

What, exactly, are you arguing about? I never mentioned income until you told me I was wrong about it. The OP's question wasn't about income but about debt. I certainly never said that they would need to verify income through the IRS--why rebut what I never said? You seem to be arguing that refusing to give lenders verification of your income won't impact the loan. But simply having a good credit score isn't enough, although it can help alleviate some other factors, like having to have been employed for a year. Trust me; if they want a pay stub with a credit score of 800+, they're going to want it for damn near everyone.

I'm not sure who is going to lend you money for a primary residence without verifying salary with either a paystub or tax return. (A bar is a business loan and a completely different matter.) If such a bank exists, they are probably sitting on a number of foreclosures.

Bottom line: lying is self-defeating. It won't work, and it will annoy the mortgage broker.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/31/2008 7:02:07 AM)

Maybe that did sound a bit argumentative, but I really didn't mean it that way.

But the debt load and income level are related. They will know what you owe, of that there is no doubt. But if they think you can afford it, generally you'll get approved. For example you could have a Mercedes payment, a yacht payment and who knows what else. But if you make enough money, it doesn't bother them a bit.

Sorry to seem harsh, sometimes it just comes out that way.

T



smartalex -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/31/2008 7:42:51 AM)

Yes--they'll look at the debt to income ratio. Your PITI can't be more than 28% of your montly income, and your total monthly debt can't be more than 36% of that income. The trouble people get into is that they don't realize that just because the bank thinks you can afford something doesn't mean you can. They don't care if you get a weekly mocha latte, buy the softer toilet paper, keep the lights on, for instance. But I doubt that if you refuse to allow them to verify income, they'll cut that check. (And if they will, why aren't they doing it for my measly mortgage?)

Wish me luck--my inspection is going on as we speak.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (7/31/2008 9:11:37 AM)

Well yes, I wish you luck. In saying that I also mean that you can afford it. From what you said, it sounds like the bank is going by the old rules.

So I think you are on solid ground here. So the good luck wish includes - it is a fixed rate, you don't need any major repairs soon and your income stays stable.

Murphy told me "You make your own luck". So the way I see it, so far so good. The inspection is a good idea. Although I do it myself rather than pay someone else, it needs to be done.

Pay attention to what they say about the roof and foundation. What is in between is easy.

DA says he can teach a monkey how to do plumbing, wiring is not hard. Drywall is not all that expensive and they practically give tile away. But to work on a roof or a foundation takes some real labor, and equipment in some cases. You don't want to do it yourself.

Enjoy your house.

T



farglebargle -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 2:30:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

They're going to pull both of your credit reports and see everything right there anyway unless he secures the loan in his name only before you're married.  His student loans will show up in his credit report though.



And keep in mind, that the government is *actively* spying on you, so all your financial transactions are recorded and analyzed.

This means, that they already *know* what's going on in your financial life, so DON'T LIE.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 2:45:45 AM)

I have closed, as a borrower, on 9 loans since July of 2001. I can assure you that income is most definitely verified unless it is a "no-doc" or "stated income" loan, which I don't think exist anymore. Term has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. Lenders don't call employers asking how much Janie Doe makes. They get copies of the last 2 years of Fed Tax returns, provided by the borrower, before the underwriter even looks at the loan app.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 9:37:50 AM)

"They get copies of the last 2 years of Fed Tax returns, provided by the borrower,"

Yes, and I can write whatever I want on them. I can also easily buy blank W2s at an office supply store. That is my point, not knowing what I am talking about ? Income is the one thing you CAN lie about.

I will admit, however, that they are going to be very suspicious if you report a million a year income and have no assets. And if they get suspicious, it is their money and they have the right to say no whenever they please.

HK, it has been done. I personally know of two cases, and have heard of a few others. But I do agree about not lying. It is not in your best interest, because if they think you aren't good for it, you probably aren't. In fact looking at the mortgage crises going on, even if they think you are you might not be.

I think saying that I don't know what I'm talking about was uncalled for. I admit to not knowing a couple of things. One, if a student loan has not come due and payable as of yet, does it appear on the credit report. One said yes. I have no reason to dispute that, so at face value, seemingly plausable, just go with it. OK it shows up.

If so, not reporting it on a credit application is a moot point. They will know anyway. But say you do that, the original question was whether or not that constitutes fraud. Well when they find a discrepancy like that they are likely to say no, in which case you get no gain from it. If the student loan is not due and payable at the time, I doubt it even constitutes attempted fraud. It depends on how the application is written.

HK, perhaps you can enlighten me on that point, how is it worded ? That is the important point, and really I don't know. They want to know what your current debt load is of course, but do they ask "How much are your other payments" or "List ALL outstanding loans" ? It is not fraud I am pretty sure, but that wording can be the difference of whether it is attempted fraud.

The other question had something to do with getting another loan right after one is approved I think. (not looking back right now). Such as, as soon as the house loan goes through you buy a new car. Something like that. That, I believe is not fraud. It might not be a good idea, but you can buy a car anytime you want.

HK, but as to the other point, tell me what stops you from filling out your own W2s and 1040s and presenting them ? I realize that they become part of "the record" and you can't change up. In other words if you get turned down for a loan and decide just to apply again with fake proof of income, that simply does not work. Having all those loans, they know what you make, that is if you told them the truth. But what if you didn't ?

Downstairs there is a tax folder. The olman does taxes for a few people, in fact looked over three years of one guy's that had them professionally done. filed three 1040X forms and got the guy ten grand. Then went back four years with the state and got another grand. Good ol H&R Block did not ask the right questions.

In that folder are most likely some extra 1040s from past years, and I have a pen. If I planned to do something like this I would have bought the blank W2s as well for the last couple of years. But I don't plan on doing anything of the sort, so I didn't.

Actually I don't intend to apply for any more credit. I could already buy a house on credit cards. I just don't need anymore. Anything in the future would have to be a very good investment. Even if I strapped my bone to the stone and bought a house like that, I could then mortgage it for a fraction of it's value just to do rehab and get it ready to rent. There are going to be alot of people looking to rent.

And you mentioned nine loans ? Looking to be a landlord ?

Buying another house is certainly a possibility, and it can be a springboard. Once you got one generating income, the rest falls into place. Someone I know (who knows a realtor) bought about a $150,000 house for $64,000.

Thing is, if anyone is still around with good credit, their house payment will be lower due to the bubble bursting. However, rents are not going down. It doesn't look like they're going to either.

While I don't think there has ever been a stronger buyer's market for houses, the same is not true for the renter's market. There should be a pretty good seller's market for a couple years IMO. People do need to live somewhere.

I really don't know if I want to play the game though, we have rented to people before and it can be a pain in the ass. Selling the houses won't be easy these days. So if you are willing to deal with it and be a landlord, it's not such a bad idea.

Any more would get too close to the hijack zone. But on the OP, no gain, no pain. If you don't get the money it can only be attempted fraud, regardless of anything else.

T



Lockit -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 9:56:37 AM)

I love Susie Orman and think she has some wonderful advice.  In a situation where you have debt, bad credit, wish to buy a house, are being given a large sum of money and have student loans... I think this is the lady to talk to.  She has books and a show where they take questions.  I really wouldn't step into a tricky situation without some advice.  Student loans according to Susie, cannot be part of a bankrupcy and she has ways of helping to get those loans down on interest rates and can give you some good advice.  Each situation may have factors that might make your situation different and to go in ignorantly, could be something you regret later.  (Coming from someone who did go in ignornatly!)



UncleNasty -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 10:06:03 AM)

For many reasons this may be the worst time to take on the debt of a mortgage. Foremost among them is that what is termed "the sub-prime crisis" is really just at the beginning. The economy is already in overall decline and from my perspective the first ripples from the stone in the pond have not yet even reached the shore.

Unemployment is not improving, and likely will get worse. Foreclosure numbers, already double what they were last year, are continuing to rise. Though legislation was passed several days ago that is intended to help 400,000 borrowers/home owners that is only 1/3 of the homes projected to enter foreclosure this year. It does nothing for last years foreclosures, or next years, which if numbers and rates of increase are consitent will be in 2.5 million range. Think about that for a minute. 2.5 million people in forclosure next year will likely loose their homes. 10,000,000 people (husbands, wives, children) will have their lives ripped apart and will be tossed into a very unstable circumstance. Credit wrecked, wealth confiscated, etc. Do you really think our economy is going to weather this storm well?

Taking on large debts at a time when there is such turmoil is proscribed, in my opinion.

There will be some good to great opportunites to cash in on the losses of others. My recommendation is to wait and pay cash for something in the next couple of years. Banks are already overrun with properties they can't sell. That number will also increase and prices are likely going continue going down.

Enough doom and gloom.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

And, regulators tend to close banks late on a Friday. Keep your eyes peeled today, and every Friday, for more closings.

Uncle Nasty



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 10:47:05 AM)

Term: ""They get copies of the last 2 years of Fed Tax returns, provided by the borrower,"

Yes, and I can write whatever I want on them. I can also easily buy blank W2s at an office supply store. That is my point, not knowing what I am talking about ? Income is the one thing you CAN lie about."

That's why my lenders have always required copies of my bank statements, too. 3 consecutive months minimum. That's for low-doc. Sure, lying has been done - almost always with the collusion of a "crooked" underwriter. Try that now. [8D]



sasseeNshy -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 3:56:59 PM)

Regardless of a lender's credit requirements, the biggest fraud, in my humble opinion, is the one you commit upon yourself.  Why oh why would anyone want to really buy something they cannot possibly afford...in a year, or two.  Incurred or to become liable for debt, is debt.  I'd sooner have someone tell me that I was pissing up a tree and could not possibly afford what I wanted to buy, then to sic a collection agency on me when I failed to meet those obligations.  Bottom line, is no one knows your financial position more HONESTLY then you do.  If you question a purchase, it is probably with good reason.

I had read, with quite an interest, of the USA sub-prime mortgage collapse, becoming quite surprised when a banker friend of mine explained to me that Canada had some risky lending operations as well.  Being somewhat old school, I thought all our mortgage financing was 25 years maximum and one either financially qualified or one didn't.  To hear that we went to 35 and even 40 year mortgages came as a shock.

Life's evil lesson, is always always have an emergency reserve, and never never buy more than you can realistically afford.  If you have to hide a debt or two to do it...should be your first warning.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 4:10:58 PM)

Oh we can afford it. They're only counting his income. My credit score is under 600 so any money I make from my full time job will be non-existant.  



sasseeNshy -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 5:05:06 PM)

With all due respect definat, from the scant information provided on this post, you can't.  You say they are going to count his income.  What about his debt, or his "liable to pay debt" ie: student loans.  Never loose sight of those "other" monthly expenses.  Owning a house is not simply an obligation to a monthly, biweekly, or whatever mortgage payment.  Actually that payment is the least of your worries.  (Momma advice I gave my chicklets).  And personally, a credit score of 600 isn't really that good.............IMHO.



Termyn8or -> RE: Is it fraud? (8/1/2008 5:42:27 PM)

HK, at this point I think we actually agree. Yes they want to see just about everything there is to see. Thing is, I think it can still be done. I am not saying it is easy. They also require enough in the bank to pay all your debts for a time. It would be nothing to go put five or ten grand in the bank, and also banks are paying shit these days so you can actually claim that is why you don't have alot of money in there.

I like to keep cash for investments. I almost bought a Mercedes about six months ago, would have been a sweet deal, it needed work. In fact I (we) are that way about houses as well. I like sweat equity. The problem with the Benz was there would be too much sweat.

And defiant, you can buy a house on a 600 rating. Just don't expect the best treatment. The main thing is to get a fixed rate. No, I have to correct myself here, the main thing is that you can afford the fixed rate. Variable introductory rates are what got alot of people in trouble. They really could not afford it.

This is getting close to the hijack zone so I will stop now.

T



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
6.298828E-02