RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 7:02:12 AM)

I never cease to be amazed by the huge contradiction that resides in 'conservative' rejection of government intervention and 'meddling' in private business, especially in financial matters; but in conservative thought that welcomes the government poking its nose in activities it deems 'subversive', effectively spying on those citizens whose opinions differ from official policy. I never thought I'd hear so many people applaud and laud such Stalinist methods.



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 7:11:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I never cease to be amazed by the huge contradiction that resides in 'conservative' rejection of government intervention and 'meddling' in private business, especially in financial matters; but in conservative thought that welcomes the government poking its nose in activities it deems 'subversive', effectively spying on those citizens whose opinions differ from official policy. I never thought I'd hear so many people applaud and laud such Stalinist methods.


It never ceases to amaze me how some people rail against injustice by those in power …yet don’t bother to vote or run for office. Then continually break the law and use civil disobedience to achieve their person beliefs that if the majority agreed with them they could accomplish at the polling place.

Butch

PS...As a responsible democrat…I just thought I would play  the devils advocate.



kittinSol -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 8:17:54 AM)

Huh?



MmeGigs -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 8:29:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It never ceases to amaze me how some people rail against injustice by those in power …yet don’t bother to vote or run for office. Then continually break the law and use civil disobedience to achieve their person beliefs that if the majority agreed with them they could accomplish at the polling place.

PS...As a responsible democrat…I just thought I would play  the devils advocate.


So what do you believe?  Do you believe that the people who are involved in these groups don't vote?  That these groups were somehow breaking the law?  That the rights we have as individual citizens should ebb and flow depending on which way the political pendulum swings?  Or are you presenting a charicature of people who do hold these beliefs?





kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 8:31:27 AM)

Will you did go off the deep end again… Stalinist methods….subversive…spying…Just because they are “STATE” police does not make them representatives of conservatism. Many so-called “Liberals” will agree with the actions of the police…police is not a bad word.
Butch



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 8:36:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It never ceases to amaze me how some people rail against injustice by those in power …yet don’t bother to vote or run for office. Then continually break the law and use civil disobedience to achieve their person beliefs that if the majority agreed with them they could accomplish at the polling place.

PS...As a responsible democrat…I just thought I would play  the devils advocate.


So what do you believe?  Do you believe that the people who are involved in these groups don't vote?  That these groups were somehow breaking the law?  That the rights we have as individual citizens should ebb and flow depending on which way the political pendulum swings?  Or are you presenting a charicature of people who do hold these beliefs?





No to all above... but I do believe the police have a right and should prepare to insure the public safety... My comments were addressing kittinSol's over the top comparison of conservatives to Stalinists.

Post number 17 is my view on the op's subject.



kittinSol -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 10:39:12 AM)

Hmmm... talk of out there comparisons, you started off the baroque claim that the people that were 'investigated' were dangerous extremists.

quote:

kd

In the radical extremists political climate of today who knows what atrocity will come from any view point no matter how seemingly benign.



So... anybody's a suspect then? Who's being over the top there [:D]?



philosophy -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 12:23:44 PM)

.....FR.....

...there seems to be something of a historical tendency for the US to look for invisible enemies. Whether it's reds under the beds, secret agents of Islam or 'easily manipulated' single issue campaigners.
It would be all too easy to bandy words like paranoia around, but could it be that US society lacks confidence in itself?



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 1:23:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hmmm... talk of out there comparisons, you started off the baroque claim that the people that were 'investigated' were dangerous extremists.

quote:

kd

In the radical extremists political climate of today who knows what atrocity will come from any view point no matter how seemingly benign.



So... anybody's a suspect then? Who's being over the top there [:D]?


Not over the top at all… their investigation in my opinion was responsible and necessary to protect the public… and the protesters. Perhaps you have not been aware of the violence that often follows anti death penalty demonstrations.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten to post the appropriate section of my post that went with the section you did post…so I will now.  

“This does not mean they are wrong or breaking the law…It just means there is a potential for violence, either by them or too them”.



Politesub53 -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 1:40:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

In the radical extremists political climate of today who knows what atrocity will come from any view point no matter how seemingly benign.

There always seems to be an extreme element in any organization that has God or Righteousness on their side.

I think it is very responsible to keep an eye on these organizations. This does not mean they are wrong or breaking the law…It just means there is a potential for violence, either by them or too them.

Butch


Surely you cant be happy with the police spying on you, if you decided on joining a protest group of some sort ? 

Your final statement seems odd, how would spying on them ( The protesters )  prevent any violence aimed towards the protesters by others ?



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 1:47:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

In the radical extremists political climate of today who knows what atrocity will come from any view point no matter how seemingly benign.

There always seems to be an extreme element in any organization that has God or Righteousness on their side.

I think it is very responsible to keep an eye on these organizations. This does not mean they are wrong or breaking the law…It just means there is a potential for violence, either by them or too them.

Butch


Surely you cant be happy with the police spying on you, if you decided on joining a protest group of some sort ? 

Your final statement seems odd, how would spying on them ( The protesters )  prevent any violence aimed towards the protesters by others ?


Not odd... you would need to know where and when the protests were to take place... that way you could be prepared for violence. Often it is not the protesters starting the violence but those opposed...I would call it investigating not spying...but then again I am not paranoid about the police.



Politesub53 -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 1:51:55 PM)

Im not paranoid about them either, but i would hate my name to end up on a police computer, along with suspected drug traffickers and terrorists, as happened in the Maryland case.

Im more paranoid about losing the right to free speech and peaceful protest, which sadly doesnt seem to worry you.

edited for spelling..



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 1:57:57 PM)

I don't see how the investigation limited their right to free speech or protest...do you?...and how did my statements lead you to believe that I am not in favor of free speech?

Butch



Politesub53 -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 2:17:33 PM)

Many people would think twice about going to a protest group of some sort, especially with the possibility that there details wpould end up on a police data base. The prevention of free speech comes about via indirect intimidation. Your posts read as if you favour these type of police tactics, many of which are aimed at preventing free speech, that may cause political embarrassment 

Incidentally, you know i am in the UK and the same police tactics are taking place here. I am just saddened the powers that be, think they can walk roughshod over peoples rights.

Why do you feel people are paranoid about the police, when we are commenting on something that has already happened ? being paranoid would be commenting on unwarrented suspicions.



Thadius -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 2:31:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Many people would think twice about going to a protest group of some sort, especially with the possibility that there details wpould end up on a police data base. The prevention of free speech comes about via indirect intimidation. Your posts read as if you favour these type of police tactics, many of which are aimed at preventing free speech, that may cause political embarrassment 

Incidentally, you know i am in the UK and the same police tactics are taking place here. I am just saddened the powers that be, think they can walk roughshod over peoples rights.

Why do you feel people are paranoid about the police, when we are commenting on something that has already happened ? being paranoid would be commenting on unwarrented suspicions.


Hell over in the UK, they don't have to go undercover, they just need to tune to the correct camera [;)]



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 2:41:33 PM)

I saw nothing in the report I read about intimidation... interference in their protest...they were not breaking or running roughshod over any persons rights. They stated why they were doing it... to head off violence. There was no reason for anyone to feel paranoid about the situation. AND most of all the worry of violence was warranted by protests in the past.

If I parade down the street in a protest and a police officer watches me this is not Stalinists tactics... in my view.

If I get a permit for a protest I give my name and address...I am not being intimidated.

I would be glad for police protection if a counter protest decided to interfere with my right to protest… this has happened in past anti death penalty marches.

You may not be paranoid about police but to me you seem to be seeing black suv’s  and helicopters behind every police shield rather than a servant of the people the vast majority are.






Politesub53 -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 4:25:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I saw nothing in the report I read about intimidation... interference in their protest...they were not breaking or running roughshod over any persons rights. They stated why they were doing it... to head off violence. There was no reason for anyone to feel paranoid about the situation. AND most of all the worry of violence was warranted by protests in the past.

If I parade down the street in a protest and a police officer watches me this is not Stalinists tactics... in my view.

If I get a permit for a protest I give my name and address...I am not being intimidated.

I would be glad for police protection if a counter protest decided to interfere with my right to protest… this has happened in past anti death penalty marches.

You may not be paranoid about police but to me you seem to be seeing black suv’s  and helicopters behind every police shield rather than a servant of the people the vast majority are.



Butch here is a report of what was going on. It was deeper than just watching people walking down the road.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.spy18jul18,0,3787307.story

You say i may not be paranoid about the police, but seem to see black helicopters and suv`s ..... Sounds paranoid to me. 

Thadius, yes we will do anything for fifteen minutes of fame [;)]



kittinSol -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 4:39:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If I get a permit for a protest I give my name and address...I am not being intimidated.



This statement amazes me. Since when has anyone needed 'a permit to protest'? I take it you don't mind too much if the police authorities keep on file the details of your sexual preferences, political interests, voting records, and medical conditions, and anything else that may be 'of concern' to them? After all, if you're not guilty... you've got nothing to worry about, right? Right?

With thoughtcrime, you're guilty for just using your head. Orwell was a true visionary.



Vendaval -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/27/2008 6:54:02 PM)

What a waste of police hours and wages!



kdsub -> RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group (7/28/2008 7:14:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Butch here is a report of what was going on. It was deeper than just watching people walking down the road.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.spy18jul18,0,3787307.story

You say i may not be paranoid about the police, but seem to see black helicopters and suv`s ..... Sounds paranoid to me. 

Thadius, yes we will do anything for fifteen minutes of fame [;)]


Politesub53

Your post is a little more detailed…I must admit I was going by the op’s post which did not include all the information you gave.

Now it is time for me to suck it up and admit I can see your point. BUT…lol… If I were in charge of a police force...and knew a protest group with the potential for violence, either by them or to them, was coming to town I would take actions to assure the safety of the protesters and my city. I would see nothing wrong with attending public meetings of this group to obtain information.

I wouldn’t label them terrorists and enter their names in a terrorist database…although I may run their names through one to see if there were problems in the past.

By doing this I don’t think I would be using Stalinist tactics…although I may not be political correct.


Butch



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