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State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 4:15:32 PM

camille65

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http://www.wbaltv.com/news/16998177/detail.html

They hadn't broken any laws and they hadn't been planning any violence, yet the Maryland state police felt it necessary to go undercover and spy on anti death penalty groups.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 4:36:15 PM

Thadius

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This is not the first time that police or the FBI, have had undercover agents attend a public rally or public meeting. I don't see an issue with this. It is when they go further and start doing surveilance on private meetings, and infiltrating those that I see the issues come up. Wouldn't this be the same as an off duty officer attending a public rally for any group, and then sharing anything they found relevant with their higher ups?

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 4:40:02 PM

camille65

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I guess it is the mix of anti-death penalty and unwarranted surveillance that caught me. Without having any obvious need, they infiltrated something that is typically seen as peaceful.
The juxtaposition made me look twice, not so much that it is a problem but that it strikes me as odd.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 4:54:30 PM

Thadius

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It could even be that they received a tip, or were investigating because of an increase in the rallies, so wanted to get some first hand intel that they could rely on for developing an action plan if anything did occur. The investigation from what I read did not prevent the rallies or interfere with them, so for me it seems like a wise plan to be prepared.

I am not very familiar with the movement, or with their actions.

Hehe, do you know how many undercover officers are present when the various unions here picket?

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:13:41 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

This is not the first time that police or the FBI, have had undercover agents attend a public rally or public meeting. I don't see an issue with this. It is when they go further and start doing surveilance on private meetings, and infiltrating those that I see the issues come up. Wouldn't this be the same as an off duty officer attending a public rally for any group, and then sharing anything they found relevant with their higher ups?

Surely this is arse backwards Thadius. Would it not be the private meetings that were most likely to be subversive ? I doubt AQ would hold a public meeting to plot violent demos.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:16:14 PM

Lordandmaster

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The State Police Superintendent himself admitted it was wrong.

Our taxpayer dollars at work. I wonder how many donuts were consumed during all those stakeouts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I don't see an issue with this.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:20:20 PM

Alumbrado

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And I suppose the police in Denver who did this to Quakers among others, were just doing a little strategic planning to prevent a repeat of all that well known peace church violence?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0322-03.htm

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:29:32 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely this is arse backwards Thadius. Would it not be the private meetings that were most likely to be subversive ? I doubt AQ would hold a public meeting to plot violent demos.

That is why I am suggesting that there is nothing that concerned me... they were attending the public meetings. I can only surmise, that the reason for such (from the information given) was to see if there was any reason for concern over the public rallies, and to develope a plan of action if something untort did occur.

If the police were "infiltraiting" the private meetings, I would be much more concerned with the "civil rights" of the protesters... If that makes sense.

They are going to hold an investigation, and based on the very limited information we have from that article, I will refrain from casting judgements on whether it was a "bad" thing.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:35:50 PM

camille65

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Why infiltrate a public meeting? Why not just ask for the minutes?
Honestly it just seems like an utter waste of resources to me, illogical.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:36:20 PM

Politesub53

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I guess the crux of the matter would be just how far did any investigations go ? For example, did they then check out individual attendees. Anyone should be free to attend a public meeting without fear of state harassment.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 5:50:48 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I guess the crux of the matter would be just how far did any investigations go ? For example, did they then check out individual attendees. Anyone should be free to attend a public meeting without fear of state harassment.

That is exactly right. We don't even know how many or how often. Until further information is released it is mere specualtion on any of our parts. I do understand that some are concerned with the resources that were spent in the operation.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/26/2008 7:34:00 PM

bipolarber

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For that matter, how often do you think cops show up to public play parties? Thunder is going on this weekend, and I'm quite certain that there are at least a couple of them attending the parties tonight. They certainly showed up on a regular basis at our support/party group in Denver. (I think in this case, they were trying to verify that our group wasn't some kind of front for a prostitution ring or something.)

No, the real time to get a little paranoid, is when you start hearing double clicks on your phone line when you pick up...

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 3:24:11 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

For that matter, how often do you think cops show up to public play parties? Thunder is going on this weekend, and I'm quite certain that there are at least a couple of them attending the parties tonight. They certainly showed up on a regular basis at our support/party group in Denver. (I think in this case, they were trying to verify that our group wasn't some kind of front for a prostitution ring or something.)

No, the real time to get a little paranoid, is when you start hearing double clicks on your phone line when you pick up...

I don't know if they still do it, but Black Rose used to hire cops for security at their yearly event. One of the cops I talked to, told me they fight over the chance to work it.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 5:02:45 AM

MmeGigs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
I guess it is the mix of anti-death penalty and unwarranted surveillance that caught me. Without having any obvious need, they infiltrated something that is typically seen as peaceful.
The juxtaposition made me look twice, not so much that it is a problem but that it strikes me as odd.

The ACLU's press release says the following -

The documents obtained in the MPIA lawsuit reveal that for 14 months, MSP's Homeland Security and Intelligence Division sent covert agents to infiltrate the Baltimore Pledge of Resistance, a peace group, the Coalition to End the Death Penalty (CEDP), and the Committee to Save Vernon Evans. The agents collectively spent at least 288 hours on their surveillance over the 14-month period. An agent also joined the electronic listserv of the CEDP under an alias using a spoof email address. Agents from the Division monitored private organizing meetings, public forums and events held in several churches, as well as anti-death penalty rallies outside the state's SuperMax facility in Baltimore and in Lawyer's Mall in Annapolis.

From the Baltimore Sun -

Police entered the names of activists in a law enforcement database of people suspected of being terrorists or drug traffickers, the documents show. Police officials said they did not infringe on the protesters' freedom; the ACLU said that nothing in the documents indicated criminal activity or intent.

There's a big problem when being a member of a group that has never engaged in or proposed any illegal activity can end you up on a terrorist watch list.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 5:06:56 AM

camille65

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Ah. Thank you for the follow up articles. I was a bit groggy when I started this thread and had a hard time articulating just what bothered me about the whole thing. Your links show what worried me.

Oh btw mini-hijack,
I adore your site! Highly enjoyable reading and you brought a lot of smiles to me with your words and sheer enthusiasm which just shines through.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 5:36:17 AM

MmeGigs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I don't know if they still do it, but Black Rose used to hire cops for security at their yearly event. One of the cops I talked to, told me they fight over the chance to work it.

There were off-duty cops doing security for a big event I attended a few years ago. They were great - friendly, non-gawky, fairly unobtrusive. Their uniforms blended better than plain-clothes would have.

I can see why they'd fight for the chance to work at our events. They're really there to keep other people from bugging us rather than to handle problem attendees. We aren't a big drinking crowd, so they don't have to deal with drunken assholes. We generally have rules about how folks are to behave, and anyone who's been around at all just knows that you don't touch people or their stuff without permission. It's likely to be a very uneventful evening for the cops - an easy night's pay and some fun people-watching.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 5:41:37 AM

MmeGigs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
I adore your site!

You're gonna make me blush. ;)
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 6:40:40 AM

kdsub

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In the radical extremists political climate of today who knows what atrocity will come from any view point no matter how seemingly benign.

There always seems to be an extreme element in any organization that has God or Righteousness on their side.

I think it is very responsible to keep an eye on these organizations. This does not mean they are wrong or breaking the law…It just means there is a potential for violence, either by them or too them.

Butch

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 6:53:43 AM

Alumbrado

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A potential for violence from the Quakers, because they believe in God? Nice.

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RE: State police spy on anti death penalty group - 7/27/2008 7:00:39 AM

kdsub

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Sure why not they are humans... and there is the possibility that those opposed to their beliefs could be violent towards them...so their movements and plans are important to the police. There has been violence in anti death penalty demonstrations of the past.

Nothing wrong with being prepared…believe me if they weren’t and someone was hurt many people would be criticizing their lack of preparation.

Butch

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