RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on?

RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (Full Version)

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MissSCD -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/18/2008 8:03:05 PM)
*We have a contract. Neither one of us stick to it half the time. I used to think it was great idea until today.* *Now, I am beginning to think it does nothing to help a long term relationship.* *People change.* *Life changes.* *Regards, MissSCD*

stella41b -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/18/2008 8:06:37 PM)
I don't see a difference between a written contract and a verbal one. I've never used one as a submissive, and I think I've signed two in the entire length of my artistic career, one to appear in a TV commercial and the other for when I did voice over work for Java games in cellphones for the UK and the United States. My only exception is when I do a translation - I won't work without one (nor without a deposit up front), but this is because I need something if and when someone defaults. A contract is nothing more than an agreement of intention or interaction. But then again you get people asking for references. I just wonder how much longer it will be before you need a CV and a motivational letter to find a partner.

Mercnbeth -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/18/2008 9:14:29 PM)
~ Fast Reply ~ quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 So, how many people have a written contract, and what exactly is it for? Does the demand for a written contract indicate trust issues, in that the relationship is based on a document, not the persons word or assurances? What they are worth depends on the integrity of the people creating them. There is a lot of hypocrisy in the lifestyle especially from those with self professed 'expertise'. You do get to know people over time and discover their true nature by their actions. Between two intimate people, a contract tends to accelerate the process. Not the process of intimacy, but the process of discovery. We have a contract. We wrote it together using many references and resources from on-line source and made it person. The process was as important as the final version. Sure likes and dislikes came to be discussed, but more important we exposed ourselves to each other; our fears as well as our fantasies. Going through the process early got us beyond sub and Dom 'frenzy'. We discussed long term deal makers and deal breakers. More time was spent so that we knew our expectations of each other and the responsibilities we would have for the relationship we contemplated. It became a new entity which we both still serve to this day. Consider it a reverse 'pre-nup'. A pre-nup being a plan for failure. A contract, speaking of course only for ourselves, was a plan for success. In that capacity it was and is priceless. quote: Wouldn't it be easier to communicate face to face, verbally, rather than using a document to define your relationship? Just curious It is a initiation of communication not a end of communication. It becomes a long term reference. We've never amended a word of the document that we framed and signed and has a prominent place in our life. However not every action is pragmatically possible under the conditions we live in today. However after 6 years of it being in place the relationship defined by the document has only changed by getting stronger and more intense. Integrity can't be documented; but no signature on any document has meaning without it.

TwoDommeDivas -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/18/2008 10:14:14 PM)
Things that are legally binding in a slave contract include: statement of intent, assumption of the risk (important!), waiver of liability, limits of consent, duration, dissolution, expected safety measures, safe words and effects. All of this will hold up in court if you find yourself there for whatever reason. What will NOT hold up is any contract for slavery or indentured servitude. That will be void ab initio for illegality. If you want a legally binding slave contract, either don't put slavery language in it, or make sure you include a severability clause -- meaning a statement that says if one portion of the contract is found to be illegal then the other portions of the contract will remain in full effect. We make long-term subs sign a contract that contains a consent, a waiver of liabiity and an assumption of the risk. It is 100% binding and enforceable should we ever be sued or have a complaint to the police.

MaamJay -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/18/2008 11:09:05 PM)
Master and violet wrote a contract but not looking at it in the sense of it being a legal document. If it was, we'd have had it notarised etc. For us it was a statement of where we were at the time when He collared me. We fully expected to move on from there and we have. It was more of a memorandum of a very special time and for that, it is precious. What did we include? * A statement on the nature of the relationship - our definitions of Master and slave * The inclusion of others - acknowledging that both of us are poly and outlining how we should pursue that while maintaining our alpha relationship. It also set down that it would be unlikely for us to ever switch again (darn, He made such a lovely sub for those 5 days long ago [;)]) * A statement on daily life - that has changed the most as the remnants of My marriage disappeared and we moved states etc. That is the area where my submission has most notably deepened and gone well beyond the bounds of the contract, something we have both embraced as it was "right" to do so. * The future - a statement of commitment for a long future and acknowledgement that while some activities may have to change as bodies age, it is intended that the core of the M/s remain. We felt it was a valuable exercise at the time to co-write this, and we both look back on it fondly from time to time. We've never used it as a weapon against the other (You promised x but You're only doing y!). It could only be written through a LOT of face to face communication, it was more of a record of what had been accomplished through that, rather than a substitute for it. violet[A] aka Maam Jay

chamberqueen -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/19/2008 10:35:18 AM)
I once had a slave beg me for a lifetime contract basically giving over all rights to me, including financial. It made the relationship more consummated in his eyes. (He was killed in Iraq and so never got to sign it.) I have no contract with my Master. His promise to me is that He is right here, not going anywhere, and that I never need to worry about Him walking away as long as I am trying to please Him. That means more to me than a piece of paper.

StrongSpirit -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/19/2008 10:45:45 AM)
Contracts ARE helpful in legal situations. No, you can't sue your master or sub. But if something goes horribly wrong, they demonstrate that the sub was willing. Yeah this is a one in a billion thing, but some times crap happens. As for the sub, it has the distinct advantage of giving you the perfect opportunity to make your hard limits CLEAR.

sasseeNshy -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/19/2008 10:56:01 PM)
The reality with contracts, waivers and releases is that they, for the most part, can be set aside, by either some realistic life changes, incompetence or just plain unfairness. And this applies to so called "legally prepared" contracts. Nothing is binding.......until the highest Court says so. When they say "rules were meant to be broken" ...well the same applies to contracts. In the context of this lifestyle, they should only have the power of what those wish it to mean, rather than a binding document to be relied upon. Like most Court Orders...they are only as good as the person they are enforced upon. My humble opinion (with a tad of experience to back it up)

MasterFireMaam -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/19/2008 11:42:02 PM)
It's rather like marraige vows: a promise of what I will do, how I will behave and what I expect in those areas from the slave. What makes it different from marraige stuff is that it's a fluid document and gets updated...as well as not being a religious ceremony, although we do feel it's spiritually binding. Master Fire

SlaveRayleene -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 7:02:54 AM)
Contracts in BDSM only work if the parties honor and respect the words therein.

angelic -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 8:04:05 AM)
~fr~ I was owned and signed a contract a few years ago. No, the contract was not legal, but when I signed it, I was giving my word to certain things. I gave my promise, and for me that was 100 times stronger than the fact that it could not be up held in a court. As a result, it took me a long time to leave the relationship. Simply put, I will not sign a contract again.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 8:21:13 AM)
quote: So, how many people have a written contract, and what exactly is it for? Does the demand for a written contract indicate trust issues, in that the relationship is based on a document, not the persons word or assurances? Wouldn't it be easier to communicate face to face, verbally, rather than using a document to define your relationship? just curious We have a contract. It outlines what he expects of me, and what I can expect of him. It expires December '08. At that time it can be renegotiated or terminated amicably. I'm not clear on why you think there's an inherent lack of trust with regard to a contract. If someone offers you one, you aren't obligated to take it. You can say no. There was no 'demand' for a written contract. My contract was offered to me, and I accepted it. I'm also not clear on why you think there's a lack of face to face communication with a contract? That's not our experience at all. Mine is very much worth the paper it's written on, thank you very much. PL

CelticPrince -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 12:48:06 PM)
quote: So, how many people have a written contract, and what exactly is it for? Does the demand for a written contract indicate trust issues, in that the relationship is based on a document, not the persons word or assurances? Wouldn't it be easier to communicate face to face, verbally, rather than using a document to define your relationship? just curious kiwi, as noted above there can be no contracts that are illegal as in slavery. However they can be useful in the beginning of a relationship to protect a Dominant just in case she changes her mind and it goes to consent. CP

RCdc -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 12:50:03 PM)
Legally, they are pointless. Otherwise, they are worth as much as the people creating and utilising them at the time. the.dark.

tsatske -> RE: contracts? are they worth the paper they are written on? (7/20/2008 3:13:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stef They're good fantasy fodder but otherwise they're worth about as much as free medical or legal advice from strangers on the net. ~stef An alternative analogy, just from my own perspective - They are worth about as much as wedding vows. Now, a marriage liscence carries some legeal weight, that is true. But there are many ways to get married - with traditional vows, with self written vows, with no vows. The exact meaning of the marriage licence is not changed at all by what vows you choose. And yet, it is very important to people to get married in ways they find 'meaningful' to themselves. Why the emphasis on picking vows that speak to them, when it changes nothing? Vows usually state that this relationship is for life. 'Till death do us part' is a comon language. Yet, that is not what the marriage licence means. Using that language in your vows will not make it so. Why do it? This is what my contract is, to me. It is a ritual between Master and I. Just like you can't stand in court and ask the judge to deny your wifes petition for divorce because she promised you 'till death do us part' (well, you can, but it will get you very little, besides laughed at), we can not use our contract as a point in our favor, at least not succesfully, if we come apart and one of us sues. Some people like to say you can use it to prove that the BDSM was consentual, but even that is a bit nebulous, in my opinion. It is a ritualized ( in this case by writing) promise between Master and I. Just like the creed I recite to Him every morning. It is not 'binding', it is just 'for us'.

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