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The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/15/2008 10:55:57 PM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline 		This started as a response to a thread about why people were sometimes so rude on forums, but I noticed it evolved into a new idea, so I decided to start a new thread:

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It is important to note that communicating in online forums is very difficult, it is very easy to be misunderstood and it it is easy to over-react to criticisms, because we cannot tell any of body language/tone of the people who are speaking. So always guard yourself and if some one says something that seems rude to you, take a deep breath and try to decided if it was really intended to be that way or if maybe they wanted to help.

Having said that though, there are some trolls who lurk in these forums and seem to delight in insulting other people, especially new people. They are apparently very bitter and jaded, but I do not understand why then would choose to spend so much time and energy attacking others. If they spend all that mental energy tearing other people down, it can create negative feelings inside them and make themselves unhappy in the long run.

Similarly, I have found that when I try to help other people (including people on online forums) it creates a deeper sense of inner peace in myself. Compassion is good for my state of mind, and I take this approach towards how I deal with this lifestyle and how I deal with slaves or submissives in my care. If more people on the forums choose to take this same approach to Domination, I think that everyone would have a better experience. As Ayn Rand would put it: Being compassionate to others is in their own “rational self-interest.”

Many people have responded to posts like this in the past ,by defending their right to be rude. People have said they didn't "owe" respect to anyone or they said that "respect is earned." I agree with them that they have a choice to be rude, no one can force them to treat people with respect. But I don't understand why they'd WANT to be rude! Being respectful and compassionate, instead of being rude, is very rewarding. Showing kindness to people you do not know can have a healing effect on your own psyche and on theirs as well, it is fun! And especially for dominants, the power of compassion will make you a better master. There are plenty of good reasons to be nice to people, I think this is very similar to the concept of "kharma."

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My advice to the other post was 2-fold. 1. read posts carefully, try not to over-react to what people say, and try not to leap to the conclusion that people have attacked you. 2. When some bitter, angry lurker does attack you, just brush it off.

I hope more people will experiment and try being supportive and kind to other people on this forum (and in general), I think if they try it they will discover they like it. I also think practicing compassion in your everyday life will make you a better Dom. Obviously a Dom must be firm and be able to punish a slave/sub when necessary, but I think compassion is very valuable as well. What do people think of this?

-Zen


< Message edited by MasterZen22 -- 7/15/2008 11:01:19 PM >
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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 12:15:38 AM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		Compassion is important, but I for one will call myself a defender of what I believe to be right.  While we could all hide behind disclaimers which neutralize any contradictory ideas, it takes the sport out of the internet.  I try to answer posts with a mature and focused manner, rarely being rude solely to be rude.  It has happened before, but luckily those threads have been pulled by moderators. 

In a recent thread, MadRabbit and I had an exchange of ideas.  It was heated, and an outside could think we were being rude to one another, but it was the most fun I've had on CM boards in a while.  I love debate, it gives me a chance to flex my mind.  Many people feel threatened when their posts are ripped apart and scrutinized, I find it invigorating. 

We can not escape those who only want to spew opinions with no regard for how it bounces down the stairs, but that's the cost of dealing with words on the internet.  Miscommunications are flagrant, as are people's assumption they are being attacked, rather than approached. 

Does helping others make me feel better?  Yes.  I love to teach (maybe preach a little), type, and talk.  Bashfully I will admit that tearing a post down to reveal its errors makes me feel ... stronger.  (An intellectual stength).  When I can defend a viewpoint or dismantle an "opponent's" I feel good.  When the person being dismantled only wanted to vomit an opinion into text and not discuss it, I appear to be on the attack...

I'm ranting.

Zen, I agree with your plea for people to be civil, but also do not expect it now or ever.

PS: I don't even mention people who read too quickly or too topically to understand hypotheticals and look past conventions such as the "general" you.

_____________________________

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... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 1:25:58 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I love debate, it gives me a chance to flex my mind. Many people feel threatened when their posts are ripped apart and scrutinized, I find it invigorating.


Keeper,

I too love debate. I love the way you described it as "invigorationg," sinking my teeth into a subject is a great pleasure in life. Debate is fantastic! "Debate" is when 2 people discuss a subject (by my definition anyways). If people cannot handle someone having a different point of view, then that is totally immature, you are 100% right about that.

Similarly, an "insult" is choosing to attack some one personally (again by my definition). So when you put all those ideas together... when a poster disagrees with the subject of a conversation, if the respond by talking about the subject, that is "debate;" but if they respond by insulting the speaker, that is what I call "rude" and it doesn't help anyone.

Do you understand what I am trying to say about the distinction between insulting the speaker and debating the subject? I can tell you are an intelligent person and you might already know this, but I chose to post it for the sake of the discussion.

Also, my idea of Compassion is more than just deciding what not to say on the forums. Compassion is about tiny, everyday decisions to be nice to someone. If I read a post where someone has made a good point, I write a quick response complimenting them, if I read a response where someone was treated unfairly I chime in and defend them, it takes all of 10 seconds, and it might just make someone else's day better. And if I notice a slave or sub has performed a task well, I compliment them, when I do those things, I feel better too.

That is part of what I mean by Compassion.

< Message edited by MasterZen22 -- 7/16/2008 1:34:43 AM >

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 2:17:17 AM   
SirDragon1961


Posts: 31
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		He dips:

Compassion is an interesting word. I believe it is one of the aspects inherent to respect. Too many people see compassion as understanding and one has to question what hurts they have endured.

Ok, as a little rant-  People that say 'respect is earnt' are the axxxholes of society and that includes the internet.  They are the bullies who like to 'Top' when they are in fact the 'Bottom' of society.  "The Dregs".  They sometimes identify as Dominants and sometimes as submissives.  They are the people who will declare 'I have my Rights!" but least deserve to have them. 

"the least valuable or most unpleasant part of something, especially a group of people" Dregs- Encarta

These people fail to understand that Rights or Respect are what one gives to another and the 'Another'  gives consistantly to others.  When One fails in their respect to another (as we can) a simple acknowledgement of offering respect and reinstating some 'personal honour/integrity' is to say "I apologise". 

One can simply say "Do unto others"

Unfortunately there is no 'Dregs' forum for "them" to "Do unto others"

Warm regards to all, Sir Dragon.  Sir to His whip_pet
. 

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 2:34:46 AM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		Probably my favorite quote....... 

Kindness in words creates confidence, Kindness in thinking creates profoundness, Kindness in giving creates love.   Lao Tzu

You get as good as you give........i personally want the best.

_____________________________

We attract hearts by the qualities we display. We retain them by the qualities we possess.

Shoes can change your life................. Cinderella

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 3:52:05 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: silkncarol

You get as good as you give........i personally want the best.


What a lovely comment!
The other thing is that people will tend to live up to ones expectations...as in perception is reality.  If you see a screen name and expect drivel, you will tend to read it in that context and therefore find the drivel you were expecting.  If you see a screen name and expect a profound bit of wisdom, you will tend to read it in that context and seek the wisdom you were expecting. 

However, when communicating in the imperfect medium of a message board, it helps to have a thick skin and to try to read in a tone that doesn't reflect ones own emotions at the time.  A harsh comment can often be meant as a very loving slap in the face as an effort to snap someone out of their pity party and hopefully get their attention.  i see this happen often when someone posts excuse after excuse for their lamentations.  Depending on the issue raised in a thread, harsh comments can also be a form of compassion.  It depends on context.

Then there are some who love to snark just because they can.  Reminds me of shooting spitballs in high school.  Annoying, yes, but since its just pixels on my screen, don't have to add value to such snarking.

i also don't fully understand the 'respect is earned' excuse for being an asshat.  There is a certain respect in dealing with our own species.  One dictionary definintion of respect is "to relate or refer to" and not just the definition of "to hold in esteem." A basic respect for other human beings simply because they are human beings is not going to turn one into a kumbaya-we-are-the-world pussy.  It's okay to have a basic respect for others even if we don't like them.  That's why its never okay to steal, murder, rape, etc. 


_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 4:00:46 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterZen22
Similarly, an "insult" is choosing to attack some one personally (again by my definition).

In your own case, MasterZen22, you may be experiencing difficulty because what you post seems to indicate that you have very little real-time experience.  You may receive more respect in the future if you do not post "suggestions" that are dangerous or illegal.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 5:05:12 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		compassion and empathy are all fine and dandy and so is blatant honesty, yet blatant honesty gets construed as rude or as an insult and compassion and empathy sometimes paves the way for the professional victim/whiner type to continue to be a victim and for the idiots to continue to be idiots; it's all good/bad, depending on which way the ball bounces and whose eyes you're looking through at the time.


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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 5:19:10 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Two things I would mention.
I do find it incredibly surprising when posts like this come up.  BDSM is full of people from everyday life and it isn;t really any different to everyday life expectations or occurances. People will and can be rude.  But I also believe that people forget that this is a space and place where people do actually 'get off' on humiliation - consensual or not - and if people are rude or obnoxious then by responding you are only empowering them.  Plus they are hidden faces.  It brings out the worst in humanity.
 
Secondly, I really loathe the term 'respect is earnt' - it has become such a buzz word with little to no meaning.  Respect is a beautiful thing - not a commodity to buy and sell at will.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 5:30:14 AM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		daddysliloneds has a point. 

A major issue with online communication is the lack of non-text clues.  Real life communication has body movements, facial clues, etc.  Even verbal communication has tonal clues.   Without these clues, people often misinterpret communication.  When you disagree with someone, you tend to take it in the worst possible way.

Jokes are very risky.   But at least with them you can usually use a smiley

Honest statements are also a problem.   Statements like "I don't use or respect people that use safe words."   That can be taken as a personal statement of fact, or an insult.  

This is compounded by the lack of opportunity to 'interrupt and explain' a comment as it gets misinterpreted.  It is even difficult to simply add a comment that you forgot to a a post.

(Note, I personally do use safe words in some situations.  I am a writer and know the difference between fantasy and reality.  Just because you enjoy one does not mean you can't also enjoy the other.)  

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 5:37:20 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		In or out of kink, I prefer to associate with people who do value compassion, generosity of spirit, openmindedness, etc. People who are rude or excessively sarcastic or unkind alienate me, no matter where, when or how I encounter them.

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 6:47:34 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Some of us who have actually done BDSM in the real world and are involved in communities large enough to have witnessed a rather large diversity of people can often see, based on very little information FAR more than others do.

Not only that, there are people who just have their heads screwed on tight, LONG before they enter BDSM.  I had lunch with someone the other day who I had met at a MAsT discussion group who while vanilla, had just discovered bdsm and I would put him up against many who have been doing this for years.

He too could see much more than most people in someone's post.  People project far more of their own dysfunction into a post than they realize and the funny thing about dysfunction is the victim/sufferer is often quite blind to the elephant following them around.

And BOY do they consider it rude to point it out to them.  Frankly, this is not only the most civil online discussion group, it is one of the most intelligent and insightful of any I know of online or off.


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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 6:54:43 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
In your own case, MasterZen22, you may be experiencing difficulty because what you post seems to indicate that you have very little real-time experience.



Magic I appreciate that you do geniunely seem to want to help with this comment, thank you very much for contributing to the conversation. But my intent was to discuss the value of when I (or others) GIVE respect and compassion to others, I like to give compassion, I was not too concerned with the receiving end of respect on this post. What are your thoughts on treating people with compassion?

Since you seemed interested, I have been in the lifestyle for about 5 years and have owned/domed various slaves and submissives during that time. I'm not sure what gave you any other impression. I try to treat people as equals and I believe I can learn from everyone, no matter what their experience level, maybe that is what you read as “inexperience" in my forum posts.

Best of luck Magic!

-Zen


< Message edited by MasterZen22 -- 7/16/2008 7:30:03 AM >

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 6:55:37 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		MasterZen22, I would like to focus on the last part of your question.

When my Master shows me compassion, my trust and need for Him grow.  I see compassion as going beyond understanding, but really trying to see what might be hidden to the casual observer.  A sub or slave my be trying to do their best to be pleasing, but because of stress or some health issue or even simply being too tired at the time they may not do their best.  They may make a snappish remark, or cry unexpectedly.  These things could be considered by some to be punishable offenses - but the Master with compassion will try to see why this unusual occurrence has come about.  There may be times it happens because of bad experiences in the past that were never shared.  (This is especially true of subs who have come out of abusive backgrounds and may have a trigger they didn't even realize they had be touched on and cause an overreaction.)

Something you didn't mention, though, is the role that compassion plays on the part of the sub.  Because Doms are so "strong" and "capable" it can be easy to forget that they also have stressful vanilla situations that they must deal with.  There may be times when excess patience is called for by the bottom.  Here's an example:  It can be very hard for a slave who is told to think of her Master 24/7 to have times when He simply cannot be available to her for a short period of time.  Two weeks with limited communication can seem like forever when you are in the middle of it, but looking back seems a very short time.  She may be feeling very sorry for herself in the middle of it, but if she can use compassion and try to remember that he is going through a difficult and stressful time and would be with her if He could, and that it is not the time to be making a lot of personal requests, then that compassion will make them closer.  If a sub can overlook a day when their top is "out of sorts" and try to see the reasons behind it and not jump to the conclusion that it must be the beginning of the end, then she has used compassion.

As for the boards, sometimes it is the only place that a person with a problem may have to turn.  They may be very emotional as they write about their problem, and it may be poorly stated.  There have been times when I have been encouraged to share more details, then when I tried to see both sides of an issue was accused of being inconsistent.  There are times that my feelings have been hurt from unwarranted "attacks", and the simple fact is that when you post something in a public forum you have to know that not everyone will understand and not everyone will treat you fairly.  I try to keep this in mind when I answer others.  If I feel that someone making a post is just being stupid - I skip over the post and don't respond.  I tend to watch for those where the person is either looking for information on something or where someone is asking for help.  I am no saint - it is just the old idea of doing unto others....


_____________________________



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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:02:10 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
People project far more of their own dysfunction into a post than they realize and the funny thing about dysfunction is the victim/sufferer is often quite blind to the elephant following them around.

And BOY do they consider it rude to point it out to them.



Michael, what an interesting comment! Could you give us a more specific example so that we will be able to picture what you are talking about in our own minds?

I personally try not to assume too much about someone based on a few forum posts, because if my assumption was wrong, how would I ever know? If I fall into the trap of making assumptions on too little information, I find I lose a valuable chance to get to know a person more closely.

But you bring up an interesting idea, and I'd like understand exactly what you mean. Perhaps I'll learn something!

-Zen

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:09:42 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterZen22
I have been in the lifestyle for about 5 years and have owned/domed various slaves and submissives during that time. I'm not sure what gave you any other impression.

As one example, you made a suggestion in another thread that could get a sexshop business shut down.  I don't consider suggestions like that to be "compassionate toward those in the lifestyle."  Why threaten someone's livelihood to act out your own kink?

In my own (limited) experience with online message boards, people who start threads about the need to be nicer online are often ones who said some boneheaded remark and didn't like it when other posters with common sense pointed out the error.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to MasterZen22)
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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:10:08 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

MasterZen22, I would like to focus on the last part of your question.

When my Master shows me compassion, my trust and need for Him grow. I see compassion as going beyond understanding, but really trying to see what might be hidden to the casual observer. A sub or slave my be trying to do their best to be pleasing, but because of stress or some health issue or even simply being too tired at the time they may not do their best. They may make a snappish remark, or cry unexpectedly. These things could be considered by some to be punishable offenses - but the Master with compassion will try to see why this unusual occurrence has come about. There may be times it happens because of bad experiences in the past that were never shared. (This is especially true of subs who have come out of abusive backgrounds and may have a trigger they didn't even realize they had be touched on and cause an overreaction.)

Something you didn't mention, though, is the role that compassion plays on the part of the sub. Because Doms are so "strong" and "capable" it can be easy to forget that they also have stressful vanilla situations that they must deal with. There may be times when excess patience is called for by the bottom. Here's an example: It can be very hard for a slave who is told to think of her Master 24/7 to have times when He simply cannot be available to her for a short period of time. Two weeks with limited communication can seem like forever when you are in the middle of it, but looking back seems a very short time. She may be feeling very sorry for herself in the middle of it, but if she can use compassion and try to remember that he is going through a difficult and stressful time and would be with her if He could, and that it is not the time to be making a lot of personal requests, then that compassion will make them closer. If a sub can overlook a day when their top is "out of sorts" and try to see the reasons behind it and not jump to the conclusion that it must be the beginning of the end, then she has used compassion.




Chamber, what a great observation! That is exactly the kind of thing I was interested in when I talked about the value of compassion in bdsm. You are right, compassion is definitely just as important in the sub as it is in the Dom. The sub simply acts on it in slightly different ways than the Dom does.

I wish you success in whatever you do!

-Zen


< Message edited by MasterZen22 -- 7/16/2008 7:23:43 AM >

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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:16:48 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
...people who start threads about the need to be nicer online are often ones who said some boneheaded remark and didn't like it when other posters with common sense pointed out the error...



Ok Magic, I’m not sure what you’re getting at but ok.

lol

But I as I stated before, my post was not about people “needing” to be nice to each other. They have a right to be rude I guess, I just don’t understand why they’d WANT to be rude. Being compassionate to other people is very rewarding. It heals the psyche of yourself and the person you are talking to. Most people who try being compassionate instantly discover how much they like it and they continue doing so afterwards.

Would you like to share an example of a time you were compassionate to a stranger and how that experience made you feel?

-Zen

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:21:16 AM   
MasterZen22


Posts: 72
Joined: 11/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

In or out of kink, I prefer to associate with people who do value compassion, generosity of spirit, openmindedness, etc. People who are rude or excessively sarcastic or unkind alienate me, no matter where, when or how I encounter them.



I agree 100% Jenny, well put!

-Zen

(in reply to DominantJenny)
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RE: The Power of Compassion in BDSM - 7/16/2008 7:30:04 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterZen22
Ok Magic, I’m not sure what you’re getting at but ok.

I am getting at the fact that you, personally, right now, are using "nice" and "compassion" as smokescreens to avoid responsibility.  You are not unique in this, either in vanilla or BDSM, and it is a trait you can overcome if you choose.  Your attempt to reset the dialogue away from your irresponsible behavior does not mean that your behavior no longer exists, and it does not mean that people do not notice it.  You can choose to deal -- or not.  If you continue to post unworkable, unhelpful, potentially danger-causing suggestions on threads, you can anticipate that posters will lose patience with you and use words that are less pleasant than I am using right now.

The first principle of compassion is to consider what the effect of your action will be on others outside of yourself.  Please practice that, instead of just talking a good game.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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