Respect....

Respect.... (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Respect.... (7/11/2008 11:57:32 AM)
This morning, I accompanied my teenaged granddaughter and some of her school friends on an academic outing to an old cavalry fort just north of town. The group consisted of 15 students, myself, and three local high school teachers. Fort Phantom really has no great claim to fame, it was an operating garrison for just over 5 years with the duty of patrolling the Overland and Butterfield stage routes. The post was abandoned after a mild earthquake shifted the course of the Salt Fork of the Brazos west of the fort and it was decided it would be two risky to have daily water trips to the river. The only claim to fame for the post was a Yellow Fever out break that decimated the two troops of soldiers stationed there. I went immediately to the post cemetery to pay my respects to the troopers who were buried there. The markers have long since disappeared, having been made of wood, and for some reason the government will not replace the markers or even claim the cemetery. The only way you know where the graves are is the slight depressions in the otherwise flat ground. It was my granddaughter's question that actually got me thinking on this subject. The question was simple, "why dont these men have markers like the ones in the city cemeteries for the veterens buried there?" She has a point. There are markers in the old municiple cemetery for civil war vets, spainish american war vets, veterens of the indian wars.... But twelve miles away, nothing. I have been thinking of those thousands of unmarked graves that are all over the plains states and southwest of troopers who died as a result of their service to this country. Most probably died of some disease, pnuemonia, yellow fever, even malaria. Why dont they deserve the same respect as those who died in the recent wars? All those abandoned outposts had graveyards, but how many are still cared for? Granted, it is probably a stupid thing to think about......

sweetwenchie -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 12:27:28 PM)
Depending on how old the Cemetery is, there is always a chance that the government does not even know who is buried there, or if they actually DO have a list of names, they might not know who is where. Here where i work there are forms to be filed with the VA for the deceased to get a Veteran's marker, and the family has to provide the discharge papers before the application can be approved. Perhaps an older cemetery like the one you described is entangled in red tape and no paper trail for the government to latch onto (because we all know how much the government adores paperwork). Just a couple of thoughts rattling through my Friday addled brain.

HeavansKeeper -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 12:46:42 PM)
I REALLY don't want to sound like a prick... But the finding and labeling of unknown soldiers in unknown graves seems like a poor use (note, I didn't say waste) of government efforts, considering the bigger issues. It's a noble cause, but it seems like the people best suited to dealing with it would be locals. Perhaps, in the long run, having a generic "unknown soldier" gravestone would be sufficient. It seems to be the most that can be done with the least misuse of resource.

jlf1961 -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 12:48:24 PM)
Possible. However, even if they dont know who is where, if they did declare it a military cemetary, then the department of the interior and national park's service will have jurisdiction over the site. It is know that near where the Fort ruins are, there was a comanche burial site, as well as some flint outcroppings where a large number of items have been found. I just think the area needs to be protected, in some fashion

philosophy -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 1:07:46 PM)
Sounds like you have a community project to do...have the place declared a military cemetary. Get the school involved.

jlf1961 -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 2:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper I REALLY don't want to sound like a prick... But the finding and labeling of unknown soldiers in unknown graves seems like a poor use (note, I didn't say waste) of government efforts, considering the bigger issues. It's a noble cause, but it seems like the people best suited to dealing with it would be locals. Perhaps, in the long run, having a generic "unknown soldier" gravestone would be sufficient. It seems to be the most that can be done with the least misuse of resource. Well, let me put it to you this way, Fort Phantom, Fort Belknap, Fort Chadbourne, Fort Mason are the only outposts in the old Fort Concho Military District that have yet to be recognized. Fort Concho is a National Historic site, Forts Griffin, McKavett, and Richardson are state historic sites. There are over 500 outposts dotting the great plains from the Mississippi to the Rockies. Every one of the forts I listed as not being recognised were decommissioned before the towns near them were built. The United States government spends a few hundred million dollars a year funding recovery operations to locate and bring home the remains of personnel who were killed during WW2, Korea and Vietnam. The funny thing is that every bit of the records concerning those outposts in indian territory are still in US Army Archives, since many of those units that were stationed at those outposts still exist. As for the locals doing anything, well even if the graveyard is not a recognised US military graveyard, under federal law, 'all cemetaries located on active or deactivated military posts are the responsibility of the US Government, and the Service who commanded those locations.' Just like every navy ship ever sunk is a military cemetary which is why you cant dive on military wrecks.

DomAviator -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 3:49:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Just like every navy ship ever sunk is a military cemetary which is why you cant dive on military wrecks. Thats incorrect. I have dove on a great many warships and military aircraft - both US and Foreign ranging form the war of 1812 to WW2 in the Marshall Islands, Fiji, The Great Lakes, Scotland, etc. Whether a site is protected from diving depends on a number of factors it is not "automatic military cememtary" ... Most prohibitions on diving certain WW2 era wrecks actually stem from the dangers of Unexploded Ordnance aboard rather than for respect for the military dead. Even if it is a military cemetary that doesnt preclude you from diving there any more than going to Arlington.

Lockit -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 4:16:51 PM)
I don't know the in's and out's of all this... but... I see a lack of respect for the living veteran's... why respect the dead one's anymore than the living one's? Just the way it is I guess. What a shame...

Vendaval -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 4:32:32 PM)
jlf, you answered my fist question as to who has jurisdiction over the cemetary. Philosophy is on the right track, either a local historical society or the history department of a nearby university would be a good place to start finding support for this type of project.

pahunkboy -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 7:48:48 PM)
thefts of vases, holders, metals - are rampant. maybe it was there but ---someone stole it.

Alumbrado -> RE: Respect.... (7/11/2008 8:03:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper I REALLY don't want to sound like a prick... But the finding and labeling of unknown soldiers in unknown graves seems like a poor use (note, I didn't say waste) of government efforts, considering the bigger issues. It's a noble cause, but it seems like the people best suited to dealing with it would be locals. Perhaps, in the long run, having a generic "unknown soldier" gravestone would be sufficient. It seems to be the most that can be done with the least misuse of resource. Well, let me put it to you this way, Fort Phantom, Fort Belknap, Fort Chadbourne, Fort Mason are the only outposts in the old Fort Concho Military District that have yet to be recognized. Fort Concho is a National Historic site, Forts Griffin, McKavett, and Richardson are state historic sites. There are over 500 outposts dotting the great plains from the Mississippi to the Rockies. Every one of the forts I listed as not being recognised were decommissioned before the towns near them were built. The United States government spends a few hundred million dollars a year funding recovery operations to locate and bring home the remains of personnel who were killed during WW2, Korea and Vietnam. The funny thing is that every bit of the records concerning those outposts in indian territory are still in US Army Archives, since many of those units that were stationed at those outposts still exist. As for the locals doing anything, well even if the graveyard is not a recognised US military graveyard, under federal law, 'all cemetaries located on active or deactivated military posts are the responsibility of the US Government, and the Service who commanded those locations.' Just like every navy ship ever sunk is a military cemetary which is why you cant dive on military wrecks. You can dive on American military wrecks, just like you can visit American military cemeteries. What you cannot legally do is desecrate either of them by looting or vandalizing.

Termyn8or -> RE: Respect.... (7/12/2008 8:31:08 AM)
I have no desire to desecrate anything or show disrespect to anyone here or anywhere else, save a few individuals. But what I am about to say needs to be said. When dead, the body is nothing but a carcass. When I die, my body is useless to me, discard it. Burn me and urn me, in fact don't even urn me, put my ashes in a plastic bag and on the curb on garbage day. If you want to honor those who died, honor their accomplishments, their unsung heroism if any, their dedication to duty. Not a piece of meat or a bag of bones. Animals have that. What we have is more, honor that. To me all this cemetary and funeral shit is just that - shit. By all means have a gathering of a dead person's loved ones, but when that is over, fuck their body. Believe me they are not using it anymore. Honor the dead, yes, but not by wasting time on a rotting piece of flesh. Go to someone's grave. You think this and you think that, but they are not there. Their body might be, but they are not. If we think the human body is to be revered, then we are nothing but animals. I like to think that we are more than that, and it is that which should be revered. T

candystripper -> RE: Respect.... (7/12/2008 9:15:07 AM)
I don't think it's a stupid thing to think about. But nothing will be done unless at least one person speaks up....why not ask your local county councilman? It's sad and I agree with you. candystripper

angelic -> RE: Respect.... (7/12/2008 9:32:41 AM)
This thread brought back a wonderful childhood memory. I was right around 9ish. A group of friends and I went exploring the foothills near our homes one summer and came upon an old cemetery that had been overgrown with weeds and clearly not cared for. We decided that we would make it a summer project to clean it up. Being kids we did not worry (because we did not know) about getting permission to clean it up, it never occurred to us that we were doing anything but having fun (ok we were weird kids). We had a blast that summer! To the OP: All it takes is one voice to start the process.

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