Best Health Care in the World... (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 1:53:45 PM)

Righties are fond of claiming that no one is truly without health coverage in America -- you can always go to the emergency ward of your local hospital, right?


quote:

Esmin Green, 49, had been waiting in the emergency room for nearly 24 hours when she toppled from her seat at 5:32 a.m. on June 19, falling face down on the floor.

She was dead by 6:35, when someone on the medical staff, flagged down by a person in the waiting room, finally approached, nudged Green with her foot, and gently prodded her shoulder, as if to wake her. The staffer then left and returned with someone wearing a white lab coat who examined her and summoned help.
Until the staffer's appearance, Green's collapse barely caused a ripple. Other patients waiting a few feet away didn't react. Security guards and a member of the hospital's staff appeared to notice her prone body at least three times, but made no visible attempt to see if she needed help.


Demonstrating their high professionalism -- I mean, do you want your health care workers wasting precious time on a corpse?

But not to worry -- six people have been fired as a result, and improvements in service have been promised:


]
quote:

Over the next four months, the hospital will attempt to shorten the median waiting time to around 10 hours.


Boy, it's a damn good thing we Americans don't have to suffer socialized medicine, like the government-provided care John McCain has gotten all his life (and all the other heroes in congress who "protect" us from universal health care get).

We're so lucky to be Americans...



candystripper -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 6:50:29 PM)

Socialised medicine is no panecea.  I've spoken to UK people who are waiting months to get a hip replaced because they cannot afford to 'go private'.
 
Nonetheless, the medical care delivery system is this country is built on the premise that everyone involved will make an obscene profit.  This obviously deters any medical care for the uninsured and underinsured -- which by now probably includes most Americans.
 
Unless we are willing to countenance denial of medical care to the underinsured and uninsured, we have no other choice but to socialise medicine. 
 
Should be fun, watching the pharmecutical companies and other greedy hogs try to preserve their 'future income', LOL.
 
candystripper



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 7:05:12 PM)

I saw that on the news the other day, and it's definitely sad.  I do hope a lot of heads roll because of it, and any medical personel that ignored this woman should have their license revoked. 

I don't think socialized medicine would have stopped this though.  Hospitals are understaffed, and that wouldn't change with government funded healthcare.  Free healthcare does not equal better healthcare. 



Zensee -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 9:13:10 PM)

You guys just keep telling yourselves it can't be done (or it shouldn't be done) and we'll just keep enjoying the ability to pop into a hospital for life saving procedures and not worrying about going bankrupt or having to sell the kids to pay for it.


Z.



Archer -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 9:39:13 PM)

Government rationed healthcare is not exactly the argument that one wants to use to argue against 24 hour waits, when the waits for help in many government rationed healthcare are often far longer.

Who you want deciding who gets healthcare and who doesn't? Because when you nationalize it you just put the power to control exactly that in the hands of the government.





TheHeretic -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 9:39:36 PM)

       Something similar happened in LA, not so long ago.  A publicly funded hospital of course.  They closed it.  Now, the people around there are miles from the nearest hospital.



Archer -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 9:46:29 PM)

In the interest of equal time for the follies of socialized methods of healthcare.

http://www.freemarketcure.com/socializedmedicineissicko.php


Another short, Two Women, chronicles the sad story of Janice Fraser who, unable to urinate, needed to have a pacemaker-type device implanted to control her bladder. Unfortunately, the hospital arbitrarily rationed the operation by doing only one per month. Janice was number 32 on the list - nearly a three year wait. She ended up waiting so long that she developed life-threatening infections, had to have her bladder removed in an emergency procedure, and will now wear a urine bag for the rest of her life.

a study was released by doctors at Glasgow University showing that 464,000 deaths had been caused over the last 30 years by the NHS in Scotland and that "the vast majority of people - around 250,000 - who died due to inadequate or delayed treatment were heart or stroke patients".

In 2003, Diane Gorsuch of Manitoba died while waiting more than two years for elective cardiac bypass surgery. But, of course, it's in the interest of single-payer advocates to mislead Americans and make them think that Canadians only endure long waits for varicose vein treatment and lap band procedures.





hisannabelle -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 10:07:11 PM)

quote:

a study was released by doctors at Glasgow University showing that 464,000 deaths had been caused over the last 30 years by the NHS in Scotland and that "the vast majority of people - around 250,000 - who died due to inadequate or delayed treatment were heart or stroke patients".


Studies estimate that the number of excess deaths among uninsured adults age 25-64 is in the range of 18,000 a year. This mortality figure is more than the number of deaths from diabetes (17,500) within the same age group. (source)

Multiply that by thirty and you have about 540,000 people in America who have died over the last thirty years due to lack of health care. That's not even counting the ones who've died due to inadequate health care (as your quote assumes those in Scotland have).

Yeah, in countries with socialized health care, people may have to wait, and that can cause problems - but not even the number of problems that not having access to health care at all can cause.

Unfortunately, health insurance doesn't mean much in hospital waiting rooms in America anyway; we thought my stepfather was having a stroke and still waited 7 hours for him to be seen. Thank God he wasn't, because with the kind of care our hospital here gives...it didn't matter that he had health insurance.

respectfully,
a'ishah.



Casie -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 10:18:20 PM)

Sad story. Tragic that she was over looked. However I don't think the socialized medicine is the answer. There are plenty of people who die waiting for life saving surgeries there. I say we get the government out of the equation. I say we drastically cut the size of government. Get rid of income tax replace it with nothing. Then people will have more money to spend on things like  health care. I say we get insurance companies out of there to.  Doctors pay people to process insurance. That right there cuts cost.We pay 90 a week in insurance. Shitty insurance at that. If we didn't have to pay so much in taxes, insurance and doctors had to be competetive we would have no problem paying for our healthcare. At the moment that it's the case. Even with insurance I can't afford to be sick. Then doctors would have to honestly repersent the prices. People would be more involved in their health care because they would have to show more interest.When you actually see the money you have to spend you are more likely to look into the risks and benifts. In my opinion that alone would cut on malpractice suits and again save doctors money lowering the cost for us. A doctor would have to provide good service and have a competitive rate to stay in business. The government seems to screw everything up. What makes health care differnt? Further more I don't trust our government to decide who lives and who dies. And them deciding what they will and will not cover and for whom is doing just that. Taking from one to give to another even with good cause is still theft.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 10:26:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In the interest of equal time for the follies of socialized methods of healthcare.

http://www.freemarketcure.com/socializedmedicineissicko.php


Another short, Two Women, chronicles the sad story of Janice Fraser who, unable to urinate, needed to have a pacemaker-type device implanted to control her bladder. Unfortunately, the hospital arbitrarily rationed the operation by doing only one per month. Janice was number 32 on the list - nearly a three year wait. She ended up waiting so long that she developed life-threatening infections, had to have her bladder removed in an emergency procedure, and will now wear a urine bag for the rest of her life.

a study was released by doctors at Glasgow University showing that 464,000 deaths had been caused over the last 30 years by the NHS in Scotland and that "the vast majority of people - around 250,000 - who died due to inadequate or delayed treatment were heart or stroke patients".

In 2003, Diane Gorsuch of Manitoba died while waiting more than two years for elective cardiac bypass surgery. But, of course, it's in the interest of single-payer advocates to mislead Americans and make them think that Canadians only endure long waits for varicose vein treatment and lap band procedures.



I find it bizarre that you and those who believe as you do rail against "socialized medicine" but have come forth with absolutely no way to fix this current broken system. Nothing.

Not only that, but you find one instance from 2003 in ONE province, Manitoba, and on that basis claim the medical system in ALL Canadian provinces is broken. If we Progressives pulled that shit you'd be screaming to the high heavens.

So here is an FAQ by an organization of AMI Doctors for Single Payer Health Care debunking all the hysterical propaganda the right shovels out. http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#socialized

And here is a mythbusting article about Canadian Healthcare showing that the American Rightwing's hysterical examples of the "failure" of Canadian Healthcare are deliberate distortions and lies. Now who do you think profits by keeping the status quo? Insurance companies, their stockholders, their lobbyists, and the Congresscritters they've bought.
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i

Why, Archer, do you keep spreading such lies?



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 10:35:44 PM)

Reading this thread makes me Really glad that the hospitals around my area are so good. 
 
When dad had his stroke, it was 5 minutes from time of call to time of ambulance arrival, a 15 minute drive to take him to the hospital he specified and straight into an exam room in the ER upon arrival (which they had waiting for him, since he was being brought by ambulance) - 30 minutes in the ER while they drew blood, checked his heart and breathing and etc, and got the paperwork ready for him to go down for an MRI and a CT, and then straight from the CT into the ICU ward until they did surgery the next morning first thing. 
 
The times that I've been in that ER - whether for myself, one of my spawn, or friends who were to sick to drive themselves - the wait times have been less than an hour, consistantly.  OTOH, the hospital that's downtown, about a 10 minute drive from home rather than a 3 minute drive from home?  Wait times typically about 5 hours unless you're bleeding profusely or they think it's something immediately life threatening like stroke, heart attack, gunshot wound, etc.  The difference is that the hosptial downtown is where 95% of the people who are druggies, gang members who've shot/stabbed each other, homeless, taken in by the cops while on the way to jail, or completely tied to the welfare system go - not just for emergencies, but for what would otherwise be Routine medical care.  While their staff is good - they're so overworked you couldn't Pay me to go there, even if I needed an ER due to a car wreck across the street from there - I'd be telling them to take  me the 10 minutes away to the next closest hospital, where dad got treated, if I wasn't unconscious.



candystripper -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 10:47:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

Sad story. Tragic that she was over looked. However I don't think the socialized medicine is the answer. There are plenty of people who die waiting for life saving surgeries there. I say we get the government out of the equation. I say we drastically cut the size of government. Get rid of income tax replace it with nothing. Then people will have more money to spend on things like  health care. I say we get insurance companies out of there to.  Doctors pay people to process insurance. That right there cuts cost.We pay 90 a week in insurance. Shitty insurance at that. If we didn't have to pay so much in taxes, insurance and doctors had to be competetive we would have no problem paying for our healthcare. At the moment that it's the case. Even with insurance I can't afford to be sick. Then doctors would have to honestly repersent the prices. People would be more involved in their health care because they would have to show more interest.When you actually see the money you have to spend you are more likely to look into the risks and benifts. In my opinion that alone would cut on malpractice suits and again save doctors money lowering the cost for us. A doctor would have to provide good service and have a competitive rate to stay in business. The government seems to screw everything up. What makes health care differnt? Further more I don't trust our government to decide who lives and who dies. And them deciding what they will and will not cover and for whom is doing just that. Taking from one to give to another even with good cause is still theft.  (Emphasis added.)


Casie, you seem to be advocating for a spend-as-you-go style of medical care delivery.  You are not alone.  Health Spending Accounts are already in existence, and contributions to them are (generally) deductible by both employers and employees.
 
http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20031022ar01p1.htm
 
Ironically, though the funds on deposit in a HSA may be used to pay health insurance premiums, they are not considered by most pundits as viable alternatives to employer-provided health insurance or socialised medicine.  Generally they are used as adjuncts to other benefits where employees have raised sand about the inadequacy of their health insurance.
 
While I agree with you generally that government should be made smaller:
 
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1967408/mpage_1/key_Evils/tm.htm#1967408
 
a repeal of the 16th Amendment and a complete end to the income tax would probably lead to anarchy.
 
candystripper



Archer -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 11:26:59 PM)

Niether system is flawless, both systems have room for improvement, my point was never to say anything different.
My problems with the idea of Government Rationed Healthcare, and unless you want to fully fund it reguardless of cost and bankrupt a nation that is exactly what it is rationed, come more from the fact that I don't want a civil servant making the calls on what is and isn't funded. Not that a corporate croney is any more concerned with actual health but it's easier to fire a corporate croney than an government worker. At least the corporate folks answer to something simple money; civil servants on the other hand seem immune to anything but budget cuts and seniority.





candystripper -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/3/2008 11:55:21 PM)

quote:

...completely tied to the welfare system....
 
hizgeorgiapeach


Actually, welfare recipients and their insurance carrier, Medicaid, are fast becoming the most sought-after class of patient.  Medicaid pays a decent rate, pays promptly and rarely if ever rakes back any overpayments. 
 
The same is less and less true of Medicare and private insurance.
 
candystripper
 
P.S.  Hope your dad fully recovers. 



Lynnxz -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 12:08:50 AM)

*Deleted angry rant*

Basically, people leech off the system until it's over run. Stop going to the ER for broken fingers.



farglebargle -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 12:19:59 AM)

HMOs add ZERO VALUE and nothing but additional costs.






meatcleaver -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 1:19:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Government rationed healthcare is not exactly the argument that one wants to use to argue against 24 hour waits, when the waits for help in many government rationed healthcare are often far longer.

Who you want deciding who gets healthcare and who doesn't? Because when you nationalize it you just put the power to control exactly that in the hands of the government.






You must be intelligent enough to know that this is a nonsensical argument. With American private medicine costing between 60% to 100% more than in comparable countries, many Americans are priced out of the market through their government skewing health law in the favour of private insurance and medical companies and away from ordinary citizens. At the end of the day, in both cases the government regulates the priorities. In universal healthcare, the citizen is the priority, in private healthcare, profits are the priority.



Archer -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 1:23:23 AM)


1. Going to have to call bullshit on the ONE Instance.
I provided 3 seperate quotes and a link that mentioned numerous more that I only selected highlights from.
What's seriously funny as hell, Truely hysterical.

You offer Esmin Green, 49

I offer Janice Fraser, and Diane Gorsuch and Glasgow University showing that 464,000 deaths had been caused over the last 30 years by the NHS in Scotland

And you chide me with "...you find one instance from 2003 in ONE province, ..."


2. Going to have to call bullshit on the idea that I've never offered something that might be a fix.


I Put forth a several step plan in several posts repeatedly but again I guess it's needed since rather than seeing if I had offered a solution you jumped to the conclussion I had never done so.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_865232/mpage_11/key_Healthcare/tm.htm#871885

In earlier threads on the subject I gave my prefered solution to the problem.
1. Make all not just employer provided insurance pre tax expenses.
   a. this takes many who can not currently afford insurance and puts them in a place where they can afford it
   b. This also moves the insurance field closer to the person paying the bill, fostering real competition for each and every individual customer which will drive down costs further.
   c. It also makes sure the person making the medical payment decissions answerable to the patient who is paying the premiums
  
2. the first round of this will drive down premiums as companies vie for individual customers
   a. This will in turn make the next lower income levels closer to being able to afford health insurance
  
3. Next step provide Insurance vouchers on a sliding scale that people can only use for Insurance premiums.
   a. keeps the government interferance out of the mix as much as posible
   b. keeps the government from ever being in the possition to tell someone "Nope you we can't afford to help."
   c. keeps the government from ever deciding what is and is not covered by a "Universal Healthcare System"

4. Remember sooner or later the other party is going to be in charge of the Universal Healthcare System you pass.
You want them to have the power to determine if
   a. abortion is a covered cost?
   b. Aids is a covered condition?
   c. Birth control covered unless married?
   ( Basicly how wide do you want to make the opposing party's control of the healthcare industry when they eventually come to power, as the pendulem swings back?)

The idea basicly goes back to Insurance premiums and coverage are as they are because the Insurance company doesn't have to keep the patient happy, they have to keep the head of HR at their employer happy, because the patient can't take their money elsewhere, but the head of HR can.





HeavansKeeper -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 1:47:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

Reading this thread makes me Really glad that the hospitals around my area are so good. 
 
When dad had his stroke, it was 5 minutes from time of call to time of ambulance arrival, a 15 minute drive to take him to the hospital he specified and straight into an exam room in the ER upon arrival (which they had waiting for him, since he was being brought by ambulance) - 30 minutes in the ER while they drew blood, checked his heart and breathing and etc, and got the paperwork ready for him to go down for an MRI and a CT, and then straight from the CT into the ICU ward until they did surgery the next morning first thing. 
 
The times that I've been in that ER - whether for myself, one of my spawn, or friends who were to sick to drive themselves - the wait times have been less than an hour, consistantly.  OTOH, the hospital that's downtown, about a 10 minute drive from home rather than a 3 minute drive from home?  Wait times typically about 5 hours unless you're bleeding profusely or they think it's something immediately life threatening like stroke, heart attack, gunshot wound, etc.  The difference is that the hosptial downtown is where 95% of the people who are druggies, gang members who've shot/stabbed each other, homeless, taken in by the cops while on the way to jail, or completely tied to the welfare system go - not just for emergencies, but for what would otherwise be Routine medical care.  While their staff is good - they're so overworked you couldn't Pay me to go there, even if I needed an ER due to a car wreck across the street from there - I'd be telling them to take  me the 10 minutes away to the next closest hospital, where dad got treated, if I wasn't unconscious.


Perhaps you realized it, but this post has the current band-aid answer in it.  ALWAYS arrive to the hospital by ambulance.  ALWAYS.

I'm having trouble finding any sort of reputable statistic on wait times of walk ins versus ambulance arrivals, but I would feel VERY confident in saying the latter is 6-10 times faster.



cyberdude611 -> RE: Best Health Care in the World... (7/4/2008 1:50:06 AM)

This kind of thing would likely increase under socialized medicine.

Right now it takes me over a month to get an appointment with my doctor. A specialist takes even longer. Imagine what will happen if everyone has a free healthcare card. How long will I have to book my doctor appointment? A year in advance?

One of the things that I would demand for me to support universal healthcare is if you can promise that illegal aliens will not be given health services. Such a system should only be for American citizens, resident aliens, and others who are here legally. People who jump the border, have their baby, and then go back to their country should be rejected for health services. We start giving free healthcare for everyone and we will have every poor and sick person from Central and South America in our hospitals.



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