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Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 5:40:53 AM

Sanity

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quote:

CHICAGO - Reaching out to evangelical voters, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is announcing plans that would expand President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and — in a move sure to cause controversy — support their ability to hire and fire based on faith.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_el_pr/obama_faith_5

I wonder how this will sit with the Obama faithful...

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 6:08:13 AM

kittinSol

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I think the state has no business supporting charities. It's up to private individuals to spend their money on charity if they so wish; but the state ought to fund its own poverty-relief and other social programs. So this isn't great news.

However... I like the sound of this (from the Yahoo! news article):

quote:

Obama proposes to elevate the program to a "moral center" of his administration, by renaming it the Office of Community and Faith-Based Partnerships, and changing training from occasional huge conferences to empowering larger religious charities to mentor smaller ones in their communities.

It sounds like Obama is smartly garnering the support of a certain section of the religious right so that once elected he can look as though he disseminates the one good thing about their ideology (help thy neighbour, anyone?!). He will use them, but he won't let them down either once elected. Smart man. I'm liking him more and more.

As for religious charities hiring staff on the basis of their faith... *shrug*. I couldn't give a toss: who cares? Most religions are crazy anyway, so it makes sense that they only want to work with crazy people

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 7:15:17 AM

subrob1967

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OMG, I guess we can call him Obushma now.

Obushma, McSame, what are we to do?

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 7:15:37 AM

Sanity

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I wonder how your post would have read were it McCain making the same proposal.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 7:23:40 AM

jlf1961

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The faith based programs are biased and prejudiced, they do not recognize my religion, i.e The Universal Church of Dogmatic Karma, Pope Resident Sadist as our great and fearless leader....

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 8:41:48 AM

Sanity

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Nor mine, which is forced Phallus worship, wherein only beautiful women may serve as my high priestesses...

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:12:51 AM

Amaros

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This is what I was afraid of with Obama - SCOTUS needs to step in and declare all of this faith based shit unconstitutional, because it is.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 7/1/2008 9:13:09 AM >

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:16:07 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I wonder how your post would have read were it McCain making the same proposal.

With 'ifs', you could put Paris in a bottle.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:22:03 AM

Lockit

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Having worked for some of those faith based services... this was downright scary when Bush had a hand in it and even scarier now. But I guess the constitution means nothing these days and churches are no more tainted than governmental agencies.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:32:34 AM

kittinSol

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I have a radical idea: nationalise all churches

.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:38:18 AM

candystripper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

CHICAGO - Reaching out to evangelical voters, Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is announcing plans that would expand President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and — in a move sure to cause controversy — support their ability to hire and fire based on faith.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_el_pr/obama_faith_5

I wonder how this will sit with the Obama faithful...

This seems like a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause. I'd like to know where Obama gets his legal advice.

I have no opinion on the success or not of any faith based privitaization program from the past. However, hiring and firing (?) based on an employee's faith is very disturbing, especially if this s aimed at extremist-style 'Christians'.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 9:45:37 AM

kittinSol

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Genuine question: how does a religious charity function if it's staffed with agnostics? Those charities are in the business of doing public relations for God: the social work is a way to broadcast their message.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 2:06:00 PM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I have a radical idea: nationalise all churches .

Communist Russia did that for decades.

I've done government contracting and the degree of neediness of the government is ridiculous. If faith-based funding were to be implemented seriously, then places of worship would be subverted from their true mission of assisting people to carry out God's wishes, to figuring out how to meet requirement 18(a) and ensure that all counseling programs met federal guidelines, etc.

Not to mention that I consider places of worship to NEED to be independent of the government.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 2:28:28 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

This is what I was afraid of with Obama - SCOTUS needs to step in and declare all of this faith based shit unconstitutional, because it is.

Actually it was SCOTUS that read the constitution as "seperation of church and state", I can't seem to find those words in my reading of it. My biggest issue with the proposals is that the government should not be involved in who a tax-exempt faith based charity can or cannot hire or fire.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 4:36:09 PM

bipolarber

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Finally! The church of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" (pastafarians) can get some of that sweet Federal Money for building it's floating pirate ship/church!

Wiccans can use it to buy some land, and build cheap ass replicas of Stonhenge out of wire mesh and concrete!

And the church of Satan... can just pocket the money because they don't believe in anything.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/1/2008 7:39:45 PM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Genuine question: how does a religious charity function if it's staffed with agnostics? Those charities are in the business of doing public relations for God: the social work is a way to broadcast their message.

The same way the symphony works when it is staffed by the tone deaf, or an airline works with blind pilots... employers have some leeway, and aren't required to hire people who are going to tell their customers to run away.

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/2/2008 8:11:54 AM

Termyn8or

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Didn't that come under the Constitutional prohibition against establishing or interfering with religion ? For many years Native Americans were allowed to use peyote under this doctrine. What happened ? They did not have parties so much, they would trip alone in many cases, sometimes digging a hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere seeking a vision. If their peyote was anything like what I tried a very long time ago, I bet they had some dandy visions.

So the law then seemingly created two classes of people, those with a certain priveledge and those without. Now what do you say ? When they say there are two sides to every issue, that is quite an understatement. If the doctrine of seperation of church and state holds water, then churches should not be tax exempt, in fact the Mormons are not.

But what about the mega church in the bario that looks like a casino in Vegas ? Preacher riding in a limo, or at least a Benz or something. Bringing in all that money, money that should be going to get the parishoners' kids fed and shod, could be paying for an air conditioned dog house.

And then via the use of volunteers, they save on overhead as well. Is this right in the days when honest hard working people are forced out of businesses, even long standing ones, every day ?

Perhaps I have an archaic vision of what this country should be. And that is probably why some people think I am crazy at times. And I am entitled to my vision, and to express it, and to tout it as the best vision. To do otherwise would not be honest.

In my world there would be a flat tax, it would be a low percentage but there would be no outs, just having a gang of kids and overbuying property so all your money goes for interest does not get you out of paying. Those days are over. Actual expenses.

I'll tell you what, no vision is etched in stone, at least this context. Instead of all you people with kids telling me how much it costs, and how that falls on me for some reason, here's the deal. You educate your kids. Do it with all the tax money you save, pay tuitions, for the books all of it. The government doesn't do schools. Send them where you want. What you do pay would be a valid deduction. I think that a fair compromise.

It might take forever to completely describe it, but there really is only one real way to solve this completely fairly, and that has to do with the government getting their sticky little fingers out of everybody's pies.

More later. Work time coming up.

T

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/2/2008 8:25:01 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

there really is only one real way to solve this completely fairly, and that has to do with the government getting their sticky little fingers out of everybody's pies.

That is a great proposal, but until people don't expect to have their personal, or corporate, entitlement pies filled by a nanny government it won't happen. After all, you can't really expect people to take on personal responsibility and accountability. Whether it's being too stupid to calculate your mortgage payment or investing in a corporate Ponzi scheme like Enron; the government has coddled 'victims' too long to abandon them cold turkey.

Regarding the OP, maybe Senator Obama has an agenda regarding a closer relationship between government and religion. After all he, through his paid employees/advisers make a point of not allowing any head covered workers to appear in any pictures of his campaign. Keeping track as I have, Senator Obama has given 200 speeches at institutions since announcing his candidacy. He has appeared at the gathering place of every religious denomination except one. Care to guess which one?

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RE: Obama to expand Bush's faith based programs - 7/2/2008 8:41:43 AM

candystripper

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quote:

In my world there would be a flat tax, it would be a low percentage but there would be no outs....

Termyn8or

There are arguments on both sides, Termy.

A flat tax is essentially a tax on all income at a stated rate. Most proponents allow for some relief for the very poor and other modifications, so proponents of a 'pure' flat tax' are scarce.

A flat tax is regressive. People in lower income brackets pay more and have less net income under a flat tax system as compared to wealthy people. This occurs in part because the rate proposed -- most often 14% -- is so far below the maximum rate on income -- which now stands at 33% but has historically been as high as 98%. 14% is also higher than the current effective rate on 'adjusted gross income' for the poor.

A progressive tax is inherently more complex. Since few advocate a 'pure' flat tax, this is a 'distinction without a difference'. A progressive tax could be simplified while still shifting the tax burden upwards onto wealthy people and away from poor people.

It's interesting that this country has employed a progressive tax system ever since the adoption of the 16th Amendment in 1913.

IMO, the value of a flat tax -- simplicity, 'fairness' and ease of administration -- can be achieved just as well by a progressive tax.

IMO, the real evils the current tax system are loopholes designed for specific industries or clients, IRS laws and regulations even a genuis cannot understand, and social engineering by the government through taxation.

I don't want a tax stipend any more than I want Pfizer to be able to triple-dip on research and development costs. I want the government to use the income tax to develop revenues, period. Nothing else whatsoever.

I want a simple, neutral tax system that does not unduly burden the poor or confiscate the property of the wealthy.

candystripper (off in la la land)

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