RE: The strength of a submissive

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poisonedprogress -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 9:24:45 AM)
Operating under the assumption that the hypothetical dom and sub are comfortable with their respective positions, and participating in D/s because they enjoy it, I do not see much in the way of strength. It only takes strength to eat ice cream if you hate ice cream kinda thing...

slaveluci -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 9:31:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I was surprised when he said something along the lines of submissives being far stronger than dominants in his opinion. When I asked him to explain he told me that he could only explain from his own perspective (obviously). He said that he felt that submissives were actually the stronger of the equation because when he really examined it he had to admit to himself that we do things that he could never find the strength to do. He could never find the strength to make himself so completely vulnerable to the will of another, to be bound and helpless, to allow someone to inflict such levels of pain upon their being, to take the pain. He could never find the strength to override his own desires and wants to commit to putting another's wants and desires first. He could never find the strength to do things for another that he didn't wish to do just because it was their wish that he do them. He could never find the strength to give up the control of the direction of his life to another. I countered with the weight of the responsibility of his position in a relationship and that I thought it takes an awful lot of strength to bear that weight. He responded by saying that in addition to the strength required to do all of the things he could never find the strength to do...that I also had the strength within me to do all the things that he does. I was puzzled by what he meant but he went on to explain that many submissives possess all of the common sense, intelligence and strength to be the one "in charge" if they choose to also...they just choose the more passive position. But even making such a choice to defer to another when you know that "you could have it all your way" shows a strength that he felt he didn't possess himself. I'd like to know what others think... I think you had a bug planted in our bedroom and recorded this conversation between us[;)]. Master has said virtually the exact same things. The one caveat I'd add is that He doesn't think ALL doms or ALL subs fit this bill, so to speak. He basically was discussing me and Himself specifically but it surely extends to many others as well. I'll be interested to see what others think................luci

LordODiscipline -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 10:02:13 AM)
*Personally - I believe it is a 'crock of malarky' for anyone to believe that "dominants have to be strong in personality and/or character" because I know many self described dominants who are not.* Many people have an ideal of the archetypical dominant who is upstanding and without original sin - but, this is not a vision everyone ascribes to and/or emulates (let alone wants to be associated with) *And, equally it is ludicrous to state that :"you must be very strong to be submissive":.* *If we were to take a contrarian view and state that "someone has to be weak to be submissive" people would be irate at such an allegation.* Like "dominants" "submissives" are people who may be striking for a certain ideal - but, I have never run into any which lived it complete with all it fantastic generalities and idylic attachements. *As with most generalities, these are both poorly contrived attempts at making people feel better about themselves.* *The most we might do to qualify these stereotypes is to say they are (at least) positive and reinforcing ones - not exactly binding or reality based, however.* *Are some dominants upright of character and model citizens? I am sure some are.* *Are all submissives bastions of inner strength and founts of fortitude... heck no.* If we are to compare the two to see "who is stronger" we would definitively have to understand what the heck we are discussing in intimate detail to allow for the removal of subjective idioms and gain a means of measuring the reality of the individual persons to be "weighed in the balance" ~J

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 10:10:31 AM)
It takes strong people to form strong relationships. Orientation is completely irrelevant when it comes to strength- we all know plenty of weak doms and weak subs. And just about everyone is strong in some areas and weak in others. And what about all the great conversations we've had about how the subs strengths can help teach and support the master if he has those weaknesses? No, I'm afraid orientation is totally irrelevant, we're just people coming together under a particular authority dynamic. Individual strengths and weaknesses are completely dependent upon that individual and nothing related to their happening to be the dom or sub or anything.

TysGalilah -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 10:19:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Taking a stroll through the memory banks of my mind this morning I hit on a conversation that I had with a dominant quite a number of years ago. Although I don't remember the exact wording I think my recollection of the gist of the conversation is pretty accurate. We were talking about how strength is a characteristic most often connected with dominance...and not nearly as often connected with submission. I was surprised when he said something along the lines of submissives being far stronger than dominants in his opinion. When I asked him to explain he told me that he could only explain from his own perspective (obviously). He said that he felt that submissives were actually the stronger of the equation because when he really examined it he had to admit to himself that we do things that he could never find the strength to do. He could never find the strength to make himself so completely vulnerable to the will of another, to be bound and helpless, to allow someone to inflict such levels of pain upon their being, to take the pain. He could never find the strength to override his own desires and wants to commit to putting another's wants and desires first. He could never find the strength to do things for another that he didn't wish to do just because it was their wish that he do them. He could never find the strength to give up the control of the direction of his life to another. I countered with the weight of the responsibility of his position in a relationship and that I thought it takes an awful lot of strength to bear that weight. He responded by saying that in addition to the strength required to do all of the things he could never find the strength to do...that I also had the strength within me to do all the things that he does. I was puzzled by what he meant but he went on to explain that many submissives possess all of the common sense, intelligence and strength to be the one "in charge" if they choose to also...they just choose the more passive position. But even making such a choice to defer to another when you know that "you could have it all your way" shows a strength that he felt he didn't possess himself. I'd like to know what others think... I think Tyson has so much responsibility, so many demands on his time and energy. I have often commented on and marveled at the strength ( and patience) it takes to be him...to do his job..and have his responsibilities. Not the least of which is his Dominant role in our relationship. Being the decision maker, always seeing after Us and incontrol of himself/Us/my submission and then encouraging me to give him all of my burdens, life pressures, questions, trials and tribulations. There have been times in the past when I have felt guilty and wanted to "ease" his burden by NOT giving him all of me or mine. Thinking I was being helpful >>> Only to have him remind me ( after I was severely reprimanded for "deciding" to do that ) that it is my submission and all that I give him that reminds him of exactly how strong he is.....even makes him stronger. He reminds me that it's my strengths that I bring to the relationship that allow him to express his in a way that strengthens and rejuvinates us both. He has shown me my strengths and how strong I actually am. He says I have done the same for him. We both have different kinds of strengths and different ways we express them in our relationship. Neither is more important or more significant than the other, both compliment each others and make each stronger individually and certainly together. True, it takes alot of strength to surrender my will and choices to another; It also takes alot of strength in that person and their character to inspire that(ability) in me. And, if I am without my own strength, then where and for what, does he feel inspiration to control ?

softness -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 10:30:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I personally would prefer to believe that there is an equal strength between a Dom and and a sub. However as in anything there probably are relationships out there where the sub is the stronger and vice versa. As long as the relationship is working and healthy it's all good. # bingo - its about using the strength for the relationship, for Him ... rather than against Him. Dominance and submission are both positions of great poptential personal strength and personal weakness. I think its as much as mistake to assume that all submissives are weak as it is to assume that all Dominants are universally strong. I have in another profile that being actively submissive is a very powerful and strong position. The more I understand my submissive nature the more I am aware of my own strengths (both in terms of skills and abilities but also in mind set and character). My submissiveness increasingly gives me a sense of ownership of these strengths - even as I surrender more power to my Owner. I never felt myself a truly strong woman until the last 6 months and that is as a direct result of my current relationship. For me ... really great submissives have a particualr kind of strength, just like truly great Dominants do.

celticlord2112 -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 10:52:25 AM)
quote: We were talking about how strength is a characteristic most often connected with dominance...and not nearly as often connected with submission. Strength should be associated with neither dominance nor submission, but with success. Strong people succeed.

LordODiscipline -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 11:17:15 AM)
*Then the question is:* *How does society, our subculture, our immediate peers, ourself (etc.) measure 'success'?* *Again... it is all subjective - and, I know many successful people who have not 'succeeded in life' (by their own estimations).* ~J quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: We were talking about how strength is a characteristic most often connected with dominance...and not nearly as often connected with submission. Strength should be associated with neither dominance nor submission, but with success. Strong people succeed.

kallisto -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 11:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: kallisto But in the same token I think it takes a stronger Dom to be able to "control" a sub who is strong - to take control of another person.. I disagree. D/s relationships shouldn't be battlegrounds where the stronger "wins". If your desire is to be submissive and you are committed to that then it shouldn't take a stronger dominant to strongarm it out of you. I agree with you. It shouldn't be a battleground where there is a "winner". I can't imagine a Dom having to "strongarm" me to "make me" be submissive. I've never been in a D/s relationship where there was a battle of wills.

spanklette -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 12:37:14 PM)
I agree with LA here...the roles are irrelevant. I think it comes down to folks who make it look easy. For me, submission is natural and does come easy...I have to put a lot of thought and effort into Topping. To me, it looks like the Dominant is getting the short end of the stick sometimes. It just seems like a lot of work to me. There are things that I might not enjoy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are difficult. KoM, stated it eloquently, as well. Being someone you're not is much more work. When your actions reflect your natural persuasion, it becomes second nature. So, in the end, I don't think either role really has the strength advantage.

wwwkevinww -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 1:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kallisto quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: kallisto But in the same token I think it takes a stronger Dom to be able to "control" a sub who is strong - to take control of another person.. I disagree. D/s relationships shouldn't be battlegrounds where the stronger "wins". If your desire is to be submissive and you are committed to that then it shouldn't take a stronger dominant to strongarm it out of you. I agree with you. It shouldn't be a battleground where there is a "winner". I can't imagine a Dom having to "strongarm" me to "make me" be submissive. I've never been in a D/s relationship where there was a battle of wills. I generally like competence. I don't enjoy people who are slow, in their thinking or their sentences. Maybe if I went south like Georgia and got use to another sub-culture in America where they speak slower, that would change. I like concise, well thought out positions. Usually the slower speaking people at least give the allusion to some degree that their position is solid, because of the cadence with which they speak. Anyhows, I type fast, I think fast, I speak fast, and I like competence. Now, if A woman shows me she isn't my equal or has something going for her, why would I want to be with her? I'm sorry if I'm picky and careful, but there are certain things I don't want..... With regard to class and breeding, I care first and foremost about health and intelligence, height is also a plus..... Call me silly but I don't like women taller than me, if she is taller than me, she should be with a dude who is her height.... I don't want a woman who is too short, cause my children might take after her, and I want them to be taller, like me. ;0 Okay, anyhows, with regard to strength, a person is a strong as they want to be. You can think of yourself as weak or as strong as you want, and that belief will reinforce what you are.... If you can barely lift up a paper cup, believing you are strong will make it easier, and you'll want to lift up more. Gradually you will lift up more, until you're lifting up cars....Of course the key to this equation is to do things gradually....The same goes true for other kinds of strength, emotional strength...accomplishing things in life(emotional iQ), and mental strength..... Whether a person is strong or weak is subjective to some extent, and for the OP, the DOM was just paying you a compliment....to bolster your self-esteem and make you happy....nothing wrong with that..... No matter how strong you are, or weak, you can always strive to be a better person...... Balance is not an easy thing to acheive, few are able to balance everything at all times perfectly in their lives, and be masters of everything at the same time. No matter how good you are in your economic situation, your family life, and your sex life, maybe you missing your spiritual connection..... Or your advice isn't always the best advice......... To touch again on class and breeding, I don't want someone who is too materialistic, or spoiled. I'm sorry, you expect me to shower you with gifts how often? ;0 Generally its a choice to be alone, and I like being alone alot. I'm a loner, not because women don't want to be with me, but because I have a hard time finding a suitable companion. Usually the times I do end up with someone is moments of weakness where I need to stop and take a respite of some companionship, even though I know they aren't suitable for long-term companionship. If you want to be with me, you have to have a high-self esteem, a strong inner character, be healthy, be at least yea high (raises arm to about his neckline), not be spoiled, and choose to be submissive to me. I also care a little about looks, you should be at least average looking......if your not at least somewhat attractive I don't want to have to close my eyes during sex or be forced to have sex in the dark.... Oh, I also want someone who can think for herself and doesn't need to be micro-managed to the 9th degree....or easily manipulated by her friends & family and who she should be with......... So yea, not many women fit this bill, oh, also non-smoking....no drugs, and some knowledge of self-defense wouldn't be bad either...;0 So I can say sarcastically to her when she tells me that some dude was mean to her, so you kicked his ass right? And she tells me in detail how she did just that.... Anyhows, to summarize, it varies on person to person, whether Vanilla or BDSMer, and no matter how weak or strong, can always become weaker or stronger depending on various situations....you should strive to be stronger and a better person, and gradually you will become stronger and better..... And with regard to the person I quoted above, a female has to have some strength to be resilent, because I generally weed women out fast.....if a woman is generally interested in me, she should tell me overtly she is, because someone who is forthright is someone to respect....I'm forthright in my opinion I don't think many are worthy of my time...At least in terms of a personal romantic relationship with me...... If you know your not worthy but still want to donate, please let me know, and I'll be happy to tell you were to send your money donation. ;0 I don't like people overly worshipping me, they should have better things to do with their time.... ;0 If you want to idolize me, look in the mirror and instead idolize yourself..... time better spent....;0 Think about what makes you a good person....How can you be better balanced or stronger....in one of the many aspects in life that you can control.... -Kevin

Lumus -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 1:42:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Strength should be associated with neither dominance nor submission, but with success. Strong people succeed. Adding to/expounding upon Celtic: Those who make the effort, take the time, remain level-headed, understand without bias, learn without judging - or any favourable characteristic matrix you like - can be successes in their own right. LA's got the idea, it's not about orientation. By the same token, we can't all succeed, Celtic. Look at me; when I joined, I had a different sub than Rain. We parted ways. Now I have Rain. Was the prior relationship a failure due to me? Perhaps partially. If I learn from it and don't repeat any misdeeds of my own, I'm content, regardless of whether I "succeed" or not. Maybe it has more to do with admiring the things we cannot be. stares up at the clouds

lally3 -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 4:45:00 PM)
personally - it takes all of my strength and will power to get through the day, work, family, animals, housework blah blah and etcetera, but when it comes to submission im like a cat in the sun after catching a mouse and hacking up a fur ball. but i take your point. it takes personal knowledge that is almost always found through growing strong and not being scared to face things. in a way we are the ones that walk up to the tiger and yanks its tail while everyone else climbs a tree and watches from a safe distance. but the risks we take arent so great, they are measured and well thought out (or should be), we yank the tigers tail, but only after he's eaten, cos we're sensible like that. the dominants we trail behind happily and willingly are kept satiated and content (for the most part) because we do what we do because we love it. being strong comes along in the little things too i think, that maybe, largely go unnoticed. holding back from airing a worry because we know our D is tired, stressed, pushed from all sides and doesnt need us pushing them too, right then, right at that moment. giving at times when we really dont feel like it, we just dont, but we do anyway. when you want to shout and stamp your feet but you keep it inside and try really hard not to sulk. those are the times, i think, when strength helps us to find an inner resource - doesnt always come off mind you!

celticlord2112 -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 5:40:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline *Then the question is:* *How does society, our subculture, our immediate peers, ourself (etc.) measure 'success'?* *Again... it is all subjective - and, I know many successful people who have not 'succeeded in life' (by their own estimations).* ~J quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: We were talking about how strength is a characteristic most often connected with dominance...and not nearly as often connected with submission. Strength should be associated with neither dominance nor submission, but with success. Strong people succeed. Having what I want--that's success. I have the woman I want. I have the business I want. I have the life I want. What other success is there?

celticlord2112 -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 5:44:32 PM)
quote: By the same token, we can't all succeed, Celtic. Look at me; when I joined, I had a different sub than Rain. We parted ways. Now I have Rain. Was the prior relationship a failure due to me? Perhaps partially. If I learn from it and don't repeat any misdeeds of my own, I'm content, regardless of whether I "succeed" or not. I disagree. If one is strong, if one persists, if one does not give up, one can achieve their desire. That is success. You have the woman you want I call that success. As for the previous woman, I'd call her past tense.

lally3 -> RE: The strength of a submissive (6/28/2008 5:56:09 PM)
isnt success relative - and finding the right person largely luck there was a Domme posting here a day or so ago, who was giving up her toys because she'd had no luck finding the right sub. doesnt make her a failure, just very bloody unlucky - if youre going to hang with the premis that theres someone out there for everyone. you can have no luck and no actual success in terms of our sociatal rating of the word and still be strong, infact i would argue that its the people who have to struggle and fight for everything they have that are the strong people in the world. strong to me is a person who carries on regardless of pressures to conform to homogeany and finds their own contentment where they can. strong in terms of dominance and submission is basically the above but takes in all aspects of life too. but it is subjective and the variables are endless as to how that non-conformity and contentment come about. to embrace who you are and find contentment and be satisfied by both takes a form of strength that heaps of people forever fail to achieve. and so i would argue from a purely biased standpoint, that we subs and Doms fit that criteria quite well. disclaimer: this doesnt include criminals, paedophiles or politicians - theyre in a class of their own and should be filed under 'Miscellaneous Bastards with no Morals'.

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