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Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 7:11:36 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20080625/ts_usnews/seizinglaptopsandcameraswithoutcause;_ylt=AjParzK5kNZCcvf.v4.Nqi134T0D

Wow!  I don't plan to do any traveling, but I would sure reconsider taking something through customs if I were!
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 8:03:18 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		  That is just wrong without due cause or a warrant, IMHO.

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(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 8:11:35 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Everyone seems focused on the potential for items to be taken off of these electronic devices... thinking back to Jacobson and the over zealous postal inspectors, I would worry as well about the possibility of abuse by something incriminating being placed there.

(in reply to proudsub)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 8:24:12 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Seems a lot could happen in a situation like this.  I never thought anyone would have the right to get into my laptop... I guess I just never thought about it happening unless I was doing something illegal.  So in other words... if they want to know what you are doing, they can do so without a warrant if you are simply traveling in or out of the country.  This is just wrong.  They aren't just doing computers... but cell phones, etc.  BS

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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 8:55:00 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		It is BS.. it is predicated in part on the notion that border checkpoints (including airports) deserve special relaxaton of privacy right protections, because of the greater harm that could be caused by allowing something dangerous to slip by.

Bound to be abused.

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/26/2008 8:55:24 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		And make sure you have proof of purchase for any high ticket goods you take out of the country.  Sometimes customs will try to get you for taxes on a computer or camera you have had for years.

Stefan

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/27/2008 11:27:46 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		A well regulated militia ,,,,,,,,,right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be what ?

Case closed. As long as they have the guns and we don't they can do whatever they want, and it is coming clear even to the densest members of society that they do whatever they want. They have nothing to fear.

Goodbye country, it is their's now, until they get to my place.

T

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 12:34:00 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, all your personal and/or work information can be seized and copied.  I anticipate a day when we shuffle through airline security in hospital gowns and paper slippers, pissing into a cup and giving blood samples before boarding the plane.

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(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 7:29:26 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I guess  you'd have a lawsuit or it would make nationwide news when your porn photo's that were on the data card showed up somewhere?

We've always got a few on any camera we own.


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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 7:32:14 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The first rule of deniable encryption is don't talk about deniable encryption. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaruTukku )

The second rule of deniable encryption is REALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT DENIABLE ENCRYPTION!

I can see the evolution of business habits. When you go overseas, you *will* need to reconnect to the company VPN and mirror all your important things in the lounge at LHR before coming back, so if you're randomly selected, you have copies on the server.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/28/2008 7:34:40 AM >

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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 8:38:36 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Everyone seems focused on the potential for items to be taken off of these electronic devices... thinking back to Jacobson and the over zealous postal inspectors, I would worry as well about the possibility of abuse by something incriminating being placed there.


http://www.popehat.com/2008/06/11/globalization-watch/

"
National security agencies are warning businesses and federal officials that laptops and e-mail devices taken to the Beijing Olympics are likely to be penetrated by Chinese agents aiming to steal secrets or plant bugs to infiltrate U.S. computer networks. Chinese government and industry use electronic espionage to “easily access official and personal computers,” says one recent report by the Overseas Security Advisory Council, a federally chartered panel comprising security experts from corporations and the State, Commerce and Treasury departments.


Alumbrado you are right to be worried, I was surprised that no one else picked up on your post or mentioned the above information.


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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 11:16:29 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The first rule of deniable encryption is don't talk about deniable encryption. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaruTukku )

The second rule of deniable encryption is REALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT DENIABLE ENCRYPTION!

I can see the evolution of business habits. When you go overseas, you *will* need to reconnect to the company VPN and mirror all your important things in the lounge at LHR before coming back, so if you're randomly selected, you have copies on the server.




I can not emphasise strongly enough that you NOT encrypt your data. There is no such thing as encryption that the DOD or NSA cannot break and if you are running an abnormal encryption you will "look guilty" and will bring on further scrutiny. Once they break the encryption even a simple e-mail like:

"Hey Kevers can we go to Galveston for the weekend cause I feel like Joe's Crab Shack. Ill bring my leopard teddy and the his and hers KY."

will be read as:

"Project Leopard is a GO. Break. Target Galveston Cruise Ship Terminal. Break. Binary agent secured and ready for use. Break. Commence operation this weekend break. Authenticate CRAB, I say again CRAB End Message."

You know, if you are buying parmasean cheese at the store, bring it home in the bottle because if you take it out, put it in a condom, and rathole it up your ass you are going to "look guilty" even if it is parmesan cheese LOL.

If someone, be it federal agent or simple thief got ahold of my laptop they will find nothing but a dual boot hard drive - Windows XP and Linux Fedora. (I trashed Vista as soon as I bought it) Microsloth Office XP, AutoCAD Light., Adobe Acrobat, Paint Shop Pro, and some other entirely innocuous software like the DVD player etc...

I have NO business files on it, no business correspondence, nothing but personal stuff - like my Ebay bids and correspondence with friends. All of my business files are on the intranet for my business web sites. (Joomla is a marvelous thing with some great Intranet components!)

I am not afraid of the Govt "finding out what I'm up to" as I have nothing to hide. However, I am concerned about a competitor giving some street kid $1000 to grab my notebook in the hopes of finding out exactly what I bid for that crew lease job, or what my hourly contract rate for 737 sim time is, or exactly what is going to be in the new release of our computer based part 135 recurrency program etc....

This is nothing to worry about, if you maintain proper operational security. Search my lap top and you will find nothing of any consequence. Steal my laptop, or send it to Gnome with my luggage when I went to Denver and I will lose nothing. I will go to the nearest Walmart, buy a new one, log into my own web site, hit the password protected intranet and be right back in business.

I dont even have potentially compromising stuff bookmarked... I know that my online banking for Washington Mutual is wamu.com and that my Wells Fargo is wellsfargo.com. Hell thats part of how I managed to financially prosper while married to a compulsive spender - she didn't even know about half the bank accounts I had because the ones she didnt need to know about had the statements go to a dead mans drop at a virtual office. 

I made it a point to learn what is known as "trade craft" and it pays off handsomely both in business and if you ever get divorced.  Encyrpting stuff just says "dig deeper"... The key is to dont leave behind trails that will haunt you. Dont try to bring an encrypted camera card of your wild weekend in Paris home, e-mail the fucking pictures to one of your e-mail accounts before you leave and then delete them. Either that or ante up $10 to buy a domain name at GoDaddy, put up a "Hi this is my home page I am working on it and will have info soon" page in the free hosting and then set up a password protected directory with an .htcaccess and .htpassword file and FTP your shit in there... Jeez.... 

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 6/28/2008 11:27:59 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 11:36:41 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

There is no such thing as encryption that the DOD or NSA cannot break

Oh?

Care to explain US v Boucher?


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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 12:20:57 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Happy to. The case you cited is a child pornography case brought by US Customs. The NSA and Dept of Defense does not get involved in child porn cases, as they do not fall under "intelligence" or "national security". They will not compromise their capabilities for something that is a simple criminal offense rather than a matter of national security. Not to minimize child pornography which is certainly abhorrent - but the NSA doesnt get involved in it for the same reason that the Secret Service doesnt write parking tickets and make traffic stops. Not their job.

For Christs sake the NSA publically admits contributing to the security on Windows Vista and the Linux 2.6 kernel. You really think they did that for free without putting in a little payload for themselves?

Do you really think that they would allow PGP or anything using the high level encryption to be out there if they didnt have a way into it? You think that would be legal? Why do you think Zimmerman wasnt prosecuted for the munitions export charges and why PGP was removed from the munitions list... It is because we WANT them to use it thinking they are safe and secure... They wont tip thier hat on that for some porn charge... Sure the cipher might be tough to break, but with the NSA having contributed to the Windows and Linux source code you can bet that they have a backdoor - probably a keystroke logger that saves the key when you create it. Do you really think the NSA, CIA, DIA, or DOD just threw up their hands when this came out and said "Whoops, guess were fucked now! Oh well!"

Another point to consider though with using encryption software... While it is legal in the USA, it might not be in the country you travel to and customs inspection happens both ways. I would really not want to be sitting in a Chineese, South African, Egyptian, Thai, or Turkish  interogation room trying to convince them that I am not a spy...  They might not understand your right to privacy, and may be a bit more agressive than Homeland Security...


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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 12:37:10 PM   
sappatoti


Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline 		DomAviator, you make valid points. However, as far as how they pertain to my (not necessarily any one else's) life, not having laptop data encrypted is no longer an option.

I am not a big international traveler by any stretch of the imagination. I may go to a Caribbean Island once every year or two, so my problem is not passing through the border patrols. My concern is, and has been, the times when my portable data devices have been stolen by thugs and common criminals. In one case, the information on the device was used in an attempt to forge my identity. None of my data devices (which at this point consist of a laptop and an old Palm OS PDA) store data in an unencrypted fashion.

Your advice about transferring data to an encrypted server file space makes perfect sense... if one is conveniently located in an area where network services and connections are available. Most of my domestic travels take me to places where there is no Internet, but yet I must still produce my work. I have no choice but to store my proprietary information on my devices, encrypt it, and be very mindful of where those devices are at all times.

Again, I'm not saying your advice isn't useful. It is, but for those of us who do not have the budgets and technology to make it practical in every day life, we must resort to other means. For me, data encryption is the best protective tool that's available to me for the way my life works.

< Message edited by sappatoti -- 6/28/2008 12:38:09 PM >

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If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 1:18:18 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Your advice about transferring data to an encrypted server file space makes perfect sense... if one is conveniently located in an area where network services and connections are available. Most of my domestic travels take me to places where there is no Internet, but yet I must still produce my work. I have no choice but to store my proprietary information on my devices, encrypt it, and be very mindful of where those devices are at all times.



Sappatoti - If I could make a  few suggestions. I totally recognize the importance of common thieves stealing your hardware. However, your encryption solution does nothing to actually protect you from the loss of the data itself. I am the first to admit, I could give a rats ass about my laptop. If it winds up in a pawn shop somewhere, Ill buy a new one and file an insurance claim. However, my data is priceless and I would be fucked without it. Hence the reason I dont store it on the hardware. Your encryption method does nothing to guard against the loss of that data.

In terms of budgets and technologies - its not as bad as you may think to have an intranet. If you check out www.joomla.org you will see the software is free to download, and there are numerous free components to do all kinds of file storage, collaboration, project management, etc... Internet access may be more widely available than you think... I have stayed in $29.00 a night mom and pop motels in small towns in Iowa that have internet connectivity. All the major chain hotels and motels do. Starbucks has wifi, as does Skillets resterunts, most airports, hell even my hair stylist has wifi access.  In even the tiniest towns I have found internet connectivity, and believe me when you fly charters you get to go to some real fucking podunk places LOL...

Another option you may want to consider is storing your stuff onto a keychain usb flash card rather than your hard drive. A thief may steal your lap top, but the odds are slim that they will steal the keys in your pocket. Your key ring wont bring him much at the local pawn shop while a laptop is good for a couple of fixes. I got my flash drive for something like $14 at Walgreens so its not a high dollar solution but it keeps my data off the hard drive of the Compaq  "steal me please" notebook. I actually have several of those flash drives in different colors, so that I dont mistakenly run the Powerpoint for the wrong class LOL This sounds brainless, but if I look out at the group and see they all have the yellow textbooks in front of them then I need the files on the yellow flash drive (CFI / Instructor) whereas the green books mean I need the green flash drive with the Airline Transport Pilot class on it LOL)

Just a few random thoughts that might help you out...

(in reply to sappatoti)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 3:04:54 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
WTF is the point?

If incriminating evidence is not turned up, then you've just taken away my livelihood for a few weeks.

If incriminating evidence IS turned up, then my defense lawyer asks in court where the chain of custody forms are and what precautions were taken to ensure that info was not planted.  Not to mention that there is a body of law showing that evidence obtained without proper probable cause cannot stick.

Bunch of doofuses.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 5:04:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


I can not emphasise strongly enough that you NOT encrypt your data.


Company guideline require that any Proprietary and/or Confidential documents ( AND any HIPPA covered information ) be encrypted for compliance with our security baselines.

We use a commercial product for the laptops, the idea of "Don't encrypt your data" is laughable.

Now, for Joe Blow, that might be an issue, but for Pros doing Business, it's crazy to *not* expect laptops to be encrypted or have encrypted directories.

You'd Bitch to High Hell if someone like some huge bank *didn't* encrypt the data, right?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 5:08:20 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator
I am not afraid of the Govt "finding out what I'm up to" as I have nothing to hide.


Are you willing to wager your freedom and liberty against the possibility that Internet Explorer had once downloaded a "FORBIDDEN PICTURE" in the background without your awareness or consent, and it's still floating around somewhere on the harddrive?

Do you think, "That's not mine" is going to fly?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Seizing Laptops and Cameras Without Cause - 6/28/2008 9:52:50 PM   
sappatoti


Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Your advice about transferring data to an encrypted server file space makes perfect sense... if one is conveniently located in an area where network services and connections are available. Most of my domestic travels take me to places where there is no Internet, but yet I must still produce my work. I have no choice but to store my proprietary information on my devices, encrypt it, and be very mindful of where those devices are at all times.



Sappatoti - If I could make a  few suggestions. I totally recognize the importance of common thieves stealing your hardware. However, your encryption solution does nothing to actually protect you from the loss of the data itself. ...


Thanks DomAviator for your advice. I do use USB keychains for data backup purposes, so I'm not concerned about actually losing the data. I'm more concerned that the common thieves who steal it would try to access it and use it to their advantage than I am by the loss of the gear itself. By encrypting the data, I give them one or more layers which may frustrate all but the most tech savvy of criminals into either dumping the gear or wiping the drive.

With regards to Internet access, you're right in pointing out that most lodging places have access of some kind. However, I do find myself in places where WiFi, bluetooth, or wired connections are not available (like retreats into remote wilderness areas, of which Florida and upstate New York have plenty to choose from). Since my cell phone doesn't pick up signals in a lot of places I go, I see no sense in subscribing to wireless data plans, such as Edge. So, for those places where I'm being creative, data encryption and backup is the best way I know to safeguard my info.

Of course, that does nothing to prevent my gear from being confiscated at one of my infrequent border crossings, but as long as the sentries aren't demanding that I hand over my encryption keys to them but allow me to key them in myself, I'm not too concerned.

_____________________________

Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

"Community, Identity, Stability." ~ A Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, 1932

If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

(in reply to DomAviator)
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