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McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of ... - 6/23/2008 12:32:33 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Great idea!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080623/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_energy


"McCain said such a device should deliver power at 30 percent of current costs and have "the size, capacity, cost and power to leapfrog the commercially available plug-in hybrids or electric cars."

The Arizona senator also proposed stiffer fines for automakers who skirt existing fuel-efficiency standards, as well as incentives to increase use of domestic and foreign alcohol-based fuels such as ethanol.

In addition, a so-called Clean Car Challenge would encourage U.S. automakers to develop zero-emission vehicles by offering consumers the incentive of a $5,000 tax credit when they purchase one"
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 12:52:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Owner59... I am speaking without references, and I sure could be mistaken, but I worry about wasting our countries best resource...our farm land.

The fertile soils of our great plains can not last forever...especially with the inefficient process of corn to fuel... Talking in extremes I know but what is more important to you...Food or Gas?...To the world, in the not so distant future, it will be food...and That will be our greatest resource.

I am all for new energy resources but I think it is short sighted to trade one resource for another.

Butch

PS I should of course mention I was talking about ethanol production

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/23/2008 1:20:19 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:01:52 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		It's an extremely good idea.  We need to be giving incentives to inventors and companies to come up with new ideas.  We need to expand on the ideas that we know will work.  Now I don't blame the auto industry for the stupid proliferation of gas guzzlers in the last 20 years.  It's our fault for wanting these monster truck sized, small penis mobiles.  The auto companies simply used a loophole that allows lower standards on trucks.  A SUV is a truck, so they ran with it.  I hope to God we are going to start seeing the move back to smaller more sensible vehicles. 

I really love my compact pickup, but it irritates me that only ONE company still makes a compact pickup.  The Ford Ranger is the last compact pickup still being sold in North America.  All the rest of the auto companies caved and started selling mid sizers, that are almost as bad on gas as full size trucks.  So if I want to replace my little Nissan in a few years, I have limited options. 

We can build better vehicles that are more efficient.  We just have to provide the incentives to people to get on board. 

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:09:45 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		The Japanese have been working on this idea for the last 5 years and they should have a car on the market before the next President ends his term.

Where was McCain 5-10 years ago when people tried starting this development put everyone was soooo sure that big oil would look into it.

I think it's a smart idea, but like I said we are several years behind everybody. 

But it is also just a campaign promise and as everyone knows.  Everyone in politics, except for Obama keeps all the promises they make on the campaign trail 

< Message edited by housesub4you -- 6/23/2008 1:10:21 PM >

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:24:40 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Owner59... I am speaking without references, and I sure could be mistaken, but I worry about wasting our countries best resource...our farm land.

The fertile soils of our great plains can not last forever...especially with the inefficient process of corn to fuel... Talking in extremes I know but what is more important to you...Food or Gas?...To the world, in the not so distant future, it will be food...and That will be our greatest resource.

I am all for new energy resources but I think it is short sighted to trade one resource for another.

Butch


There`s switch grass and hemp,both will grow on any land.

But alcohol is just one small part of a green renewable/alternative energy policy.

I think people are going to have to get away from the centralized massive electrical power plant ~to~ grid model, and have a model where every southwest facing roof has photo-electric solar panels as well as solar panel fields all over America "feeding back" into the grid.

A reverse model in essence and something the power utilities/coal/oil/natural gas producers don`t want .They like the centralized system over the broad based decentralized model .

Millions of mega watts flow down our rivers each year,but you`d need multiple small dam/turbine power plants to generate it, as apposed to the mega-dams we all know about.All those small plants could feed clean renewable energy into the main grid.

There`s the savings noted by McCain with plug-in cars that don`t burn gas.Imagine using solar panels to charge your commuter car?
I car that runs for free(not including the panel`s cost).

And then there is weatherizing of our buildings.So much heating and cooling energy is lost from lose seams and no insulation.

That could save huge amounts of energy.

It just takes leadership.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/23/2008 1:29:39 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:30:55 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		I tried growing my own "hemp" to use as fuel, but they kept saying "Burn it before it grows" 

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:33:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the answer Owner59... I agree on every point you have made...I also believe alternate energy sources are a priority of both candidates.

But all the advertisements and information in my area are about the production of ethanol from corn... and on prime farmland… Corn must be the most efficient crop for this process. This is the mistake I am talking about.

Not political in anyway… just a mistake that may affect our future.

Butch

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:33:48 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		     Hell, i would do it for 3 million.  This "carrot" should actually be an incentive for the individual inventor, and carries several potential drawbacks.  The solution that is sought will not be pleasant to several industries, including big oil, and several solutions will require re thinking the engineering "absolutes" that have been incorporated into automotive design for 30 to 100 years.
      Also, one should watch out for the "alligators" as the swamp gets drained.  As with  CF lighting, disposal of broken and no longer usable batteries will be an environmental concern for the next generation.  Recycling/reconditioning and the ability and expense of doing so should be factored in from the start.
       i am not "green" or a tree hugger, i suspect that there is a good possibility to make money in providing the solution, with a small side effect of improving the environment, at least in the short term, as well as reducing dependence on fossil fuels (not eliminating).

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to housesub4you)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:42:00 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Just as a mention of the law of unintended consequences. Those well sealed buildings that hold in their temps, tend also to be the sick buildings which have mold problems, and other internal air polution problems. There is a happy medium where a building breathes enough to remain healthy, and yet holds as much heat as is efficient.

I'm glad they are looking into the super battery, and I certainly agree that the small power plant method is something that needs to be set into policy. BTW those super bateries will be good for those home solar/wind/ etc units because one of the major recurring costs is batteries. laes crop are 10 year replacement if I recall so maybe those super batteries will be longer lived tha that nd thus make home power units more feasible/ affordable.

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 1:54:39 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I think this is a good idea and so is this other proposal mentioned in the linked article -

"In addition, a so-called Clean Car Challenge would encourage U.S. automakers to develop zero-emission vehicles by offering consumers the incentive of a $5,000 tax credit when they purchase one."

And yes, sick buildings are often the result of poorly maintained ventilation and cooling systems.  The air is terribly unhealthy inside.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 2:37:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Ummm...

Does McCain not know we already know how to build these batteries? They're called NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) and through some rather odd business dealings Chevron owns the patent rights to them.  They were in the second run of EV-1's and in the RAV-4EV's and they worked great. Chevron is quite happy to make them in small sizes but until quite recently flat refused to make any for automotive use. Chevron and GM say they'll be in the Aura and Malibu hybrids when those vehicles are built. However they still refuse to manufacture or license anyone else to manufacture automative scale NiMH batteries for anyone else.

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 3:16:24 PM   
deliciousmorsel


Posts: 153
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		McCain was fed the proposal to try to look greener. It's a problem for a party that started a war for oil, and he really needs to distance himself from the Bush/ Cheney attitude.
I've long suspected the technology was there- hidden in a warehouse owned by the Big Three automakers or the Seven Sisters. I'm not surprised Chevron owns Super Battery technology. Oil companies have understood Peak and decline for years- notice how British Petroleum changed it's corporate identity to "energy in general" instead of just oil a couple years ago? These are big successful companies because they can look ahead and plan. They understand what'scoming, but they won't roll out solutions until they get $10 a gallon gas.

There's a medium size turbine electric plant on the side of the Mississippi in Vidalia Louisiana which I understand has been hugely successful. The city built it, and it's a model for what towns and small cities along big enough rivers need. Sir Archer is absolutely correct about a decentralized grid- but companies like Entergy like private jets and cushy perks. Or the Board does anyway. The Feds are going to have to push for solar before it happens, it's pricey without subsidy.
I'd love solar panels on my roof to run heavy air conditioning. The house way out in the middle of nowhere on the farm loses electrical power a lot; every storm takes down miles of power lines. The 19th century Deep South lifestyle leaves a lot to be desired; I promise Victorian Household is better with AC and modern laundry LOL!
Why are so many roofs in hot climates black? It's senseless. Makes the house wicked hot. Burns more power. Is that the point?

Something I don't understand is all this boondoggle over ethanol. What a bunch of Bull! I grow corn and stand to make money on this- but it's all total crap. It takes more energy to make ethanol than you will ever get out of it. Every time energy is transformed some is lost but ethanol is the most gruesomely inefficient example of this imaginable. It has such a low, I think it's called butane rating? Similar to octane- the mileage you get on the stuff is so poor you have to buy and burn more than gasoline- and so it costs more. And a food shortage will not go over well!
It's time to learn to ride bikes in traffic, folks. Nobody discusses this, but it gives one excellent head cleaning time and the technology is already here and excellent.


Edited for spelling

< Message edited by deliciousmorsel -- 6/23/2008 3:22:18 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 4:10:13 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Owner59... I am speaking without references, and I sure could be mistaken, but I worry about wasting our countries best resource...our farm land.

The fertile soils of our great plains can not last forever...especially with the inefficient process of corn to fuel... Talking in extremes I know but what is more important to you...Food or Gas?...To the world, in the not so distant future, it will be food...and That will be our greatest resource.

I am all for new energy resources but I think it is short sighted to trade one resource for another.

Butch


There`s switch grass and hemp,both will grow on any land.

But alcohol is just one small part of a green renewable/alternative energy policy.

I think people are going to have to get away from the centralized massive electrical power plant ~to~ grid model, and have a model where every southwest facing roof has photo-electric solar panels as well as solar panel fields all over America "feeding back" into the grid.

A reverse model in essence and something the power utilities/coal/oil/natural gas producers don`t want .They like the centralized system over the broad based decentralized model .

Millions of mega watts flow down our rivers each year,but you`d need multiple small dam/turbine power plants to generate it, as apposed to the mega-dams we all know about.All those small plants could feed clean renewable energy into the main grid.

There`s the savings noted by McCain with plug-in cars that don`t burn gas.Imagine using solar panels to charge your commuter car?
I car that runs for free(not including the panel`s cost).

And then there is weatherizing of our buildings.So much heating and cooling energy is lost from lose seams and no insulation.

That could save huge amounts of energy.

It just takes leadership.


   Ahhh, great concept, quite doable, but politically suicidal.  A car that virtually runs for free?  imagine the fear that individual independence from the fuel companies, electric companies and, as an electric vehicle would be less inclined to need repair and break down than an Internal comustion counterpart.  That would be wonderful for the driver, consumer, but imagine the fear in the heart of the government when they realize that their downside is the reduction, and more complicated process to collect taxes.  now it is easy to add to the cost of fuel.  They would have to severely increase individual taxes, or tack things on to the cost of batteries, emission free vehicles and in your example, solar panels to make up for the losses.  It may sound cynical as hell, but why do you think that cigarettes are still legal and available, not outlawed (and yes, i smoke).  It would be really strange for the government (either party)to propose a solution that would decrease their tax revenue. 
     As for the "Magic Bullet" battery.  it is possible to switch to all electric with the  standard Lead Acid battery currently in one's vehicle.  It might take a Deep Cycle charge capability(which currently exists) to make it perfectly match.   NiMH can also work, i am surprised but not shocked that Chevron has bought into that, but lithium would also provide a possibility.
        Economically, it has to be competitively expensive to be produced and retooled than it is to produce Internal combustion vehicles now.  The vehilcle has to be roadable within the same price range as current vehicles, and for the government not to panic, there has to be a way of collecting the tax revenues they would lose through the reduction or loss of fossil fuel revenues.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 4:12:06 PM   
Sabella


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

_____________________________

“The giant Grof was hit in one eye by a stone,
and that eye turned inward so that it looked into his mind and he died of what he saw there.”
From The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, by Patricia A. McKillip

(in reply to deliciousmorsel)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 4:55:02 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The targets to secure the prize include a 30% cost reduction, along with "substantial improvements" in size, capacity and technology.

And the benchmark for improvement is over and above what is being used today in Electric or Hybrid automobiles.
So the we already have them is not exactly coming from good research into what was said.

So they have to be 30% cheaper than currently used batteries
They have to be significantly smaller than currently used batteries
And they have to hold a significantly larger charge than batteries in use in electric or hybrid cars today.

All in all a better spent 300 Million would be tough to come up with.


(in reply to Sabella)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 4:59:02 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The targets to secure the prize include a 30% cost reduction, along with "substantial improvements" in size, capacity and technology.

And the benchmark for improvement is over and above what is being used today in Electric or Hybrid automobiles.
So the we already have them is not exactly coming from good research into what was said.

So they have to be 30% cheaper than currently used batteries
They have to be significantly smaller than currently used batteries
And they have to hold a significantly larger charge than batteries in use in electric or hybrid cars today.

All in all a better spent 300 Million would be tough to come up with.

How are they going to do that with stomping all over the existing NiMH patents? Even if some smart guy develops it, if its derived from those NiMH patents then Chevron will still get to call the shots till 2015.

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 5:09:55 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		      That is unfortunate.  The solution is not exclusively in the battery, but if the government has a hand in the development, they also keep a hand in the pocket of the developer(s).  Politically that makes sense, somehow.  Kind of like Obama thinking that $4.00/gallon is a positive development. 
       There are solutions which might not be quite so elegant, but certainly as effective to the end user.

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 5:20:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		They are banking on the idea that like Edison with the lightbulb the significant change will be enough to be patentable all on it's own.
How are they going to do it has always been the 64 K no wait 300 M dollar question. I'm not a battery expert by any means but I expect you're not either.
but the chemistry of electric storage would seem to offer other metals and other anhydrides in different ratios that will yeild different results.They don't hold the patent on metal/ anhydride batteries it would be too broad to pass the patent tests, they only hold it on Ni someone else has the Lithium patent, I'm pretty sure someone else holds the patents on the other metals in the same valence electron collum with Ni and Li, but that leaves 8 X 4 other metals that could be combined. So maybe a scandium or cobalt anhydride battery.



(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 5:33:44 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

They are banking on the idea that like Edison with the lightbulb the significant change will be enough to be patentable all on it's own.
How are they going to do it has always been the 64 K no wait 300 M dollar question. I'm not a battery expert by any means but I expect you're not either.
but the chemistry of electric storage would seem to offer other metals and other anhydrides in different ratios that will yeild different results.They don't hold the patent on metal/ anhydride batteries it would be too broad to pass the patent tests, they only hold it on Ni someone else has the Lithium patent, I'm pretty sure someone else holds the patents on the other metals in the same valence electron collum with Ni and Li, but that leaves 8 X 4 other metals that could be combined. So maybe a scandium or cobalt anhydride battery.





     That still skirts the issue that the battery has to be charged at some point which includes the generation of power in some fashion or another.  The best altenative even to current hybrids, would involve a clean(er) production of energy.  Adequate storage capacities already exist (yes, anything can be improved).

_____________________________

live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer... - 6/23/2008 6:06:20 PM   
Potentate


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline 		There's no such thing a "free lunch", eternal motion or ...energy from nothing. Laws of thermodynamics dictate that energy cannot be created or destroyed. What that means is even electric cars, are "mostly" powered with fossil fuel, (hydro, nukes and solar are a only small percentage of the nations portfolio). So, even a car with SUPER Battery or better yet a hypthetical PERFECT BATTERY is still a vehicle that uses fossil fuel. From a SYSTEM standpoint you actually may be using MORE fossil fuel than an electric vehicle because of power distribution and storage losses. If the local power plant is a coal burner, the net impact of your electric vehicle is actually MORE pollution than a modern cleaner gasolene vehicle.

As much as I HATE to admit this, and even more hate to pay 5 bucks a gallon, I know that human nature being what it is, the only thing that will get most people to drive smaller cars is higher cost gas. The only time some homeowners will weatherstrip and insulate is when power costs are SO high that its cheaper to conserve. In Europe, where gas is already 8 bucks a gallon, scooters, motorcycles and small cars are everywhere. In India and China, where most people can't afford cars or fuel, there are bicycles. AND not to get tooooo far off the point its us good ol' Americans with our wasteful lifestyles who have the largest carbon footprints and most impact on the environment because we can AFFORD to be wasteful. I work in the energy field and talk to customers everyday, and for almost ALL of them, when they say 'show me the green', they mean greenbacks. 

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
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