RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (Full Version)

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atursvcMaam -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 6:39:28 PM)

    i agree with you that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you left out the rest of the law of thermodynamics, which says that energy can not be created or destroyed, only converted.  It is there, and usable, but it is indeed not free.
     i fall into the category when someone mentions "green" i think of money more quickly than i think about the environment.  There is no guarantee that all change will be more economically or environmentally beneficial.  As the cost of producing that energy changes, so do the benefits of switching.
  



kdsub -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 6:47:31 PM)

I don’t think a patent by Chevron means anything. If the production of such batteries were possible with known technology China would jump on the chance to lead in the market…US patents mean crap to them.

Butch



Owner59 -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 7:38:08 PM)

This idea might survive the campaign, no matter who wins.




bipolarber -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 7:38:17 PM)

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is where this money for the "prize" is coming from. McCain is saying that he'll pay for this program by just cutting some of the pork out of his first year's budget....

Um... he's not even President yet, and he has $300,000,000 in pork?

First he offers the "gas tax vacation" as an incentive to vote republican. One commentator likened this move to "going through your couch for spare change when you are six months behind on the mortgage." So that didn't fly... Now, it's "Hey everybody! Vote for me and there'll be prizes for people who solve our problems for me!" Or, if you like... "Let's just turn the money hose on the energy problem"... Until maybe someone comes up with a viable solution.

The general election is just ramping up... watch for these kinds of BS promises from the GOP... it's truly a sign these guys have run out of ideas.



MadRabbit -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 10:08:15 PM)

Well, the government could afford to give us back 27 billion dollars of our tax money this year so we can pay off our debts and NOT stimulate the economy.

I'm sure 300 million next year won't be too big of an issue.



DomKen -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 11:16:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I don’t think a patent by Chevron means anything. If the production of such batteries were possible with known technology China would jump on the chance to lead in the market…US patents mean crap to them.

Butch

NiMH technology exists. Cell Phones, laptops and actual still on the road zero emmission vehicles (Toyota RAV-4EV) all have them. Chevron is making billions off the patents. What Chevron wouldn't do for many years was manufacture or license anyone else to make automotive scale NiMH batteries.

US patents do mean something to China. Ever since they joined WTO they simply can't get away with large scale IP theft anymore and don't let anybody fool you making automotive scale NiMH batteries isn't a small operation.

As has been said it's possible that similiar technology with different chemicals may be possible but to the best of my knowledge there is very good reason to believe that the most efficient storage battery of this sort will be NiMH. But 300 million is a might big prize if someone can make one that works. Although I hope the stipulation to get the money is freely licensing the patent.



Archer -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 11:18:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam



    That still skirts the issue that the battery has to be charged at some point which includes the generation of power in some fashion or another.  The best altenative even to current hybrids, would involve a clean(er) production of energy.  Adequate storage capacities already exist (yes, anything can be improved).


Wow so if I only answer directly the question asked by one person I'm skirting all the other issues????
What a load of_________.

To answer the 901237598709243570983179052367023473924597827089278 possible questions of in some sort of unified theory of everything is a crap requirement to avoid being accused of skirting an issue.

Now to address your assertations.
Adequate capacities??????? you mean those batteries that hold for less than 100 miles between charges are adequate for you??? That's not even going to get folks round trip to work in some places.
As to how to charge them, overnight hours tend to be low demand periods so the charging periods actually fall right into line. These type of batteries would be usefull in several ways Lead Acid deep cycles have the weight draw back new batteries would need in order to achieve the benchmarks would be smaller (Not take up valuable space) and in all likelyhood be less dense and thus weigh less (lead and Acid tend to be very heavy) compared to Lithium or Ni or actually most other metals that might be tried. So they would fit right in for both plug in and for hybrids with higher MPG than even current models. Add to that the storage practicality for home generation units I mentioned earlier and some of the generation of the plug ins can come from there.

The thing that seams odd is to see folks after 16 + years of no Energy Policy at all getting upset when someone actually starts to propose one that might do what the majority of folks have been bitching about the government not investing in future tech for energy.
The biggeest difference D vs R in this area seams to be McCain wants to try EVERYTHING to some extent, while Obama as best I can tell is proposing conservation only. Now my reading sources on Obama's proposals have been limited but aas I hear it he's been long on inspiration but short on detailed plan in alot of areas.

So far I have to give Advantage McCain on the energy issue even with the pandering McCain has been doing with no solution things like gas tax holidays.





DomKen -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 11:28:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
The biggeest difference D vs R in this area seams to be McCain wants to try EVERYTHING to some extent, while Obama as best I can tell is proposing conservation only. Now my reading sources on Obama's proposals have been limited but aas I hear it he's been long on inspiration but short on detailed plan in alot of areas.

So far I have to give Advantage McCain on the energy issue even with the pandering McCain has been doing with no solution things like gas tax holidays.

Did you bother looking at his official site?
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

A quick perusal shows clean coal, biodisel, cellulosic ethanol production, renewable electricty and some others. I don't see anything explicitly about nuclear but beyond that his plan looks pretty good on the surface. I have my doubts about cellulosic ethanol but why not put some R&D money into it, he would double federal funding for energy research as well.



Archer -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/23/2008 11:29:29 PM)

DomKen I'm pretty sure the newest most efficient batteries are Lithum based not Nickel. I know my laptop battery is lithium, as are my cellphone batteries Yep right there on the battery from both my phone and my Laptop Lithium Ion Battery.

Ni based batteries is a relatively mature battery technology and has been largely replaced with Lithium based including in the currently under development all electric vehicles.
Including the Tesla, and Subaru's G4E upcomming electric car.

Ni based is on the way out Lithium being the current standard.

With the patent for it being held best I can tell by Motorola.



bipolarber -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 5:27:43 AM)

There's also the problem of what do do with all these batteries once they've worn out... look at the enviromental problems we have with used tires... now imagine the same mountains of trash made out of batteries, with acidic residue, heavy metals, non-degradable plastics, lead....



DomKen -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 6:47:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

DomKen I'm pretty sure the newest most efficient batteries are Lithum based not Nickel. I know my laptop battery is lithium, as are my cellphone batteries Yep right there on the battery from both my phone and my Laptop Lithium Ion Battery.

Ni based batteries is a relatively mature battery technology and has been largely replaced with Lithium based including in the currently under development all electric vehicles.
Including the Tesla, and Subaru's G4E upcomming electric car.

Ni based is on the way out Lithium being the current standard.

With the patent for it being held best I can tell by Motorola.


Li-ion has a major downside in comparison to NiMH. Li-ion battery lifespan is not strictly based on number of charge-discharge cycles but also but by time since manufacture. The batteries have a lifespan of roughly 5 years, whether in use or not, and the storage capacity of the battery declines about 20% per year under ideal conditions, fully charge and stored at 77 degrees. Consumers are unlikely to think highly of this effect which means vehicle range would decline steeply over time and would make consumers need to know date of manufacture of the batteries in a vehicle when they purchase it.

There is also a safety issue associated with Li-ion in comparison to NiMH. NiMH has two mandatory safety features compared to the 4 required in Li-ion. This adds cost and reduces the size of the cell that can fit in a specific volume. These safety devices also increase unreliability as each is designed to permanently disable the cell if triggered which can result in the permanent loss of a battery cell due to a failure in a safety device.

I've looked into this a lot and Li-ion is not definitely preferable to NiMH and IMO is inappropriate for vehicular applications.



atursvcMaam -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 7:17:09 AM)

     My apologies Archer, i did not mean to upset anyone.  i am simply frustrated that the focus of Mr McCain's proposed prize is battery oriented only.  i did not mean to say that you, specifically, were skirting the issue.  And yes, with the storage capacities today, there is a potential conversion that would take a 120 mile range of today's technology and make it approximately 175 miles around the city (average 25 mph speed gives one the capacity for approx 7 hrs drive time between charges) and  about 600 miles per charge on the highway (10 hours between charges on the highway).  The individual components used test correctly to meet these requirements, and work mathematically to produce these numbers.  the prototype of this vehicle has not been assembled yet, as it would be relatively easy to knock off, and i have not yet found a venture capitalist who will invest in this while working under non-disclosure.  The government would love to own and keep it, as would the auto manufacturers.  My skeptical concern is that the oil companies would want to fully own or bury this possibility.
     again, i did not mean that as a personal attack, and apologize if it sounded that way.  i would love to see this situation resolved, but would not mind making a dollar or two in the process.  As for why this is capable under today's technologies, or yesterdays, is that the idea started in the seventies with gas rationing.  when supply corrected and prices went down it was less economically beneficial.  but the base technology was available in the late 70's, and the proposed electric car specs (GM Impact prototype)  were outline in a 1983 magazine article (Popular Science or Road and Track i do not remember) 



Archer -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 7:47:40 AM)

Tesla and Subaru and multiple other manufacturers disagree. i've not gone that far into the research but they seem to have trade offs as with almost any choice.
http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/hev/

There seems to be alot of study going the Li direction rather than the Ni direction best I can tell thus far. The lifespan problems being solved with economy of scale mass production. (see third link) They are not there just yet but that does seam to be the direction the manufacturers are moving.
http://www.gizmag.com/ford-testing-120mpg-plug-in-hybrid-explorer/8719/
http://www.gizmag.com/aptera-typ1-three-wheel-electric-vehicle/8392/2/
http://www.hybridcars.com/technology-stories/lithium-ion-batteries.html






Smith117 -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 8:02:08 AM)

Someone should tell Mr. McCain that he's a bit late. A company in Texas designed a battery about 3 years ago that could turn a Prius's mileage from 40-ish MPG to over 100 MPG. The only thing hindering the cost, according to the news at the time, was a lack of demand neccessary for mass production.



atursvcMaam -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 10:39:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Someone should tell Mr. McCain that he's a bit late. A company in Texas designed a battery about 3 years ago that could turn a Prius's mileage from 40-ish MPG to over 100 MPG. The only thing hindering the cost, according to the news at the time, was a lack of demand neccessary for mass production.


That has been the problem, ecological green has not been a major selling feature until the past year or so, and there are still a variety of skeptics.  Something that is ecologically friendly, but cuts into a major industry, without replacing the tax revenue base, or the employment provided by major companies, is going to meet a great deal of resistance.  Economic green is a much more visible color.



DomKen -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 12:51:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Tesla and Subaru and multiple other manufacturers disagree. i've not gone that far into the research but they seem to have trade offs as with almost any choice.
http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/hev/

There seems to be alot of study going the Li direction rather than the Ni direction best I can tell thus far. The lifespan problems being solved with economy of scale mass production. (see third link) They are not there just yet but that does seam to be the direction the manufacturers are moving.
http://www.gizmag.com/ford-testing-120mpg-plug-in-hybrid-explorer/8719/
http://www.gizmag.com/aptera-typ1-three-wheel-electric-vehicle/8392/2/
http://www.hybridcars.com/technology-stories/lithium-ion-batteries.html

Chevron refused to sell NiMH batteries to subaru for their hybrid and I presume the same holds true for the Tesla.

I'm pretty sure the others in question are going with Li-ion since Chevron has only agreed to manufacture automotive scale batteries for GM, who they bought the patent from in the first place.

But if Li-ion is acceptable to the public, I really have doubts, I'm fine with that.



kdsub -> RE: McCain-"offer $300 million prize for developer of "super battery" (6/24/2008 2:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

NiMH technology exists. Cell Phones, laptops and actual still on the road zero emmission vehicles (Toyota RAV-4EV) all have them. Chevron is making billions off the patents. What Chevron wouldn't do for many years was manufacture or license anyone else to make automotive scale NiMH batteries.

US patents do mean something to China. Ever since they joined WTO they simply can't get away with large scale IP theft anymore and don't let anybody fool you making automotive scale NiMH batteries isn't a small operation.

As has been said it's possible that similiar technology with different chemicals may be possible but to the best of my knowledge there is very good reason to believe that the most efficient storage battery of this sort will be NiMH. But 300 million is a might big prize if someone can make one that works. Although I hope the stipulation to get the money is freely licensing the patent.



You could be right but I did see where the US was protesting with the WTO over China's  lack of enforcement of US Patent rights.

I also saw where a Chinese manufacturer was gearing up to produce large format NiMH batteries.  Granted they are going to be used in motorcycles and scooters…but it is a step away.

I also saw where Cobasys…ECD and Chevron… and GM were back together for some of their new hybrids. Not sure where Chevron will go with that.


Butch



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