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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 1:44:26 PM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Precisely. It's not some kind of personal ability. Lies, deceit and fabrication are at the base of a lot of wars. *Ahem*

....good job all the leaders of the Western world are above such chicanery........

(over the smoking ruins of his irony-detector, his sarcasm-detector also blows up)

You might want to start shutting down those detectors before you post.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 1:55:36 PM

cyberdude611

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Precisely. It's not some kind of personal ability. Lies, deceit and fabrication are at the base of a lot of wars. *Ahem*

Not always...
Germany after World War I was in severe economic depression. People were living in the streets. They were starving for food. And the country was torn apart by war. Along comes the Nazis who promised to transform the country out of depression, make Germany a world power again, and seek revenge on France and England who were forcing the Germans to pay for reconstruction. The Nazis kept their promise. It only took about 6 years to go from economic depression to one of the greatest powers in world history. No other nation has ever made that type of transition so quickly. The Nazis rebuilt infrastructure, provided socialized medicine, provided public schools, provided jobs, and developed a powerful and technologically advanced military. This made Hitler an enormously popular and powerful person. People had no reason to not trust him. This only increased the effectiveness of the propaganda. And it created a vicious cycle leading to fascism.

Such a thing is not impossible here. Germany was a democracy when the Nazis came to power. In America, if we end up in severe depression, and some leader or political party comes forward and promises great things and provides those things....it creates a very dangerous set of circumstances. The average Joe is infamous for tunnel vision. He only sees what is in front of him and is only concerned about his own wallet and the safety of himself and his own family. This is one reason why I dont like politicians that make lots of promises and knows how to talk and move great numbers of people. Those type of politicians make me nervous because I've seen history repeat itself far too many times.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 2:11:48 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The Nazis kept their promise. It only took about 6 years to go from economic depression to one of the greatest powers in world history. No other nation has ever made that type of transition so quickly. The Nazis rebuilt infrastructure, provided socialized medicine, provided public schools, provided jobs, and developed a powerful and technologically advanced military. This made Hitler an enormously popular and powerful person. People had no reason to not trust him. This only increased the effectiveness of the propaganda.

Hmmmmmmmmm... So, Hitler was a great leader then?

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 2:14:28 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Precisely. It's not some kind of personal ability. Lies, deceit and fabrication are at the base of a lot of wars. *Ahem*

....good job all the leaders of the Western world are above such chicanery........

(over the smoking ruins of his irony-detector, his sarcasm-detector also blows up)

You might want to start shutting down those detectors before you post.

....don't worry, they only appear when the apparently wilfully blind post first.......and they're meant to be humourous.......

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 2:21:58 PM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Hmmmmmmmmm... So, Hitler was a great leader then?

Here's where it gets tricky. One could analyze and say that Hitler was a great leader because he united his people with an almost insane zeal. He led them to be a world power of amazing proportions. As a leader he was good. By a certain interpretation of facts, you could say this.
As a human being he was an abysmal failure. Or to quote Eddy Izard, "Hitler was a mass murdering fuckhead.." He was a power mad psychopathic little maniac. There is no way except through denial of facts that anyone could claim otherwise.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 10:37:49 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Precisely. It's not some kind of personal ability. Lies, deceit and fabrication are at the base of a lot of wars. *Ahem*

Not always...
Germany after World War I was in severe economic depression. People were living in the streets. They were starving for food. And the country was torn apart by war. Along comes the Nazis who promised to transform the country out of depression, make Germany a world power again, and seek revenge on France and England who were forcing the Germans to pay for reconstruction. The Nazis kept their promise. It only took about 6 years to go from economic depression to one of the greatest powers in world history. No other nation has ever made that type of transition so quickly. The Nazis rebuilt infrastructure, provided socialized medicine, provided public schools, provided jobs, and developed a powerful and technologically advanced military. This made Hitler an enormously popular and powerful person. People had no reason to not trust him. This only increased the effectiveness of the propaganda. And it created a vicious cycle leading to fascism.

Such a thing is not impossible here. Germany was a democracy when the Nazis came to power. In America, if we end up in severe depression, and some leader or political party comes forward and promises great things and provides those things....it creates a very dangerous set of circumstances. The average Joe is infamous for tunnel vision. He only sees what is in front of him and is only concerned about his own wallet and the safety of himself and his own family. This is one reason why I dont like politicians that make lots of promises and knows how to talk and move great numbers of people. Those type of politicians make me nervous because I've seen history repeat itself far too many times.

And in the process created a recovery that would have collapsed of its own weight if expansion and wars of conquest were not undertaken.Germany's financial recovery were simply the expected results of putting a country on a war footing.nothing like building tanks and airplanes to put the people to work,of course sooner or later one has to use thise tanks and airplanes to acquire more land and natural resources lest it all grind to a halt..And BTW it was reparations strangling Germany's econoy not reconstruction

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 6/16/2008 10:39:31 PM >

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/16/2008 11:09:53 PM

Archer

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Actually I'll cop to Hitler being a great leader, which has absolutely nothing to do with being a good human being, or anything other than having the ability to lead people.
His leadership ability was great, while other values lacking.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 12:14:01 AM

Leatherist

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He's doing what everyone else will do-kissing ass in accordance with the polls.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 12:37:47 AM

jlf1961

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First off, McCain said nothing that any person who ever seen combat anc come home has ever said.

There is not a sane individual alive that likes war.

However, his plan to end the US involvement in Iraq is still based on fighting a centralized enemy, not an insurgent conflict as it is now.

Nor would Obama be the first american President who never saw combat. FDR is but one example, of course, Jefferson, Madison and some of the other first presidents never saw combat, they were members of the continental congress.

If military service was made a requirement to be president, logic dictates that it should be a requirement to serve in any public office, and with that said, under that train of thought, then military service should then be the only requirement applied to vote. People never serving a day in uniform would then be unable to vote.

While this worked in some of the classical city states, and even the Republic of Rome, I think it would fall short of succeeding in this day and age, short of a military coup in the US.

But then, the Apache had a saying, only a man of peace can call for war, and only a warrior can call for peace. Seemed to work for them until the expansion of the US ran smack into them.

Iraq is not going to be solved with any military plan of action that has come out of anything other than unconventional warfare. Small units hitting key targets after enough intel has been gathered to ensure it is a good target. Forget airpower for anything more than direct support of ground operations, and finally, get enough people over there to rebuild the damn country in places that we have a decent amount of control, and do it all at the same time.

Quit saying "we are going to rebuild iraq," before you actually start because the Iraqi people wont believe it.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 7:50:02 AM

MissSCD

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McCain has said that nothing would change. Nothing may change eiher way, but we need to wake up and get out of the republican controlled bull crap that has cost so many lives and gas.
Enough of war is enough.
I am going to do the very thing I said I would not do. I am voting straight democrat. We need to try even if it is wrong.

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 8:12:15 AM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Hitler had the ability to create enough fear in the populace to make them do anything he wanted.

Some kind of mysterious superpower, perhaps?

No, he just knew how to speak, how to lie, and how to decieve. He lied so well I wonder if at times he started to believe his own lies. Remember what Lenin said, "Tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
There was a poll several years ago taken in Germany and nearly a 1/3rd say that Hitler "was a good leader."

Notice the only thing that defeated the Nazis...was fighting them. Just ask the Russians. They lost 30 million people in that fight. Had they rolled over like the French....who knows...Hitler may have won the war.

I would love to see this "poll"... got a link?

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 9:44:14 AM

Nosathro

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I find this funny...if McCain claims to hate war..why on National Television did he say "The withdrawal of Troops from Iraq is not important"

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 9:51:07 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TieNTeas

I think McCain has been consistent with his message/feelings toward the Iraq war and war in general.

The media and others have repeatedly distorted what he has said, however. I have a friend that instists McCain said he wants our troops fighting in Iraq for 100 years. Of course, the reality is he talked about having presence in Iraq like we have in Japan, Germany, South Korea for the past 50-60 years.

What do you think is "deceptive"?

Yes, that 100 years stuff is just a media hoax. Now if it's only for 60 years, well then that's a different story. I'm sure we would all support that!

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 9:55:48 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
If we all refused to fight, people like Hitler would rule the world.

...surely if everyone refused to fight, hitler would have been standing there shouting 'fight dammit' while everyone looked at him and shook their heads sadly.
i'm reminded of the old joke, 'what if they gave a war and nobody came?'

Yeah but you know that it doesnt work that way. Hitler had the ability to create enough fear in the populace to make them do anything he wanted.

Yea, same as Bush and Cheney and company did in taking us into this war. They just used different methods.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 9:57:21 AM

Archer

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Oviously some folks are unable or unwilling to follow the basic logic of hating to do something but believing it is still nessisary to do. Instead of having to address the idea that is posted/printed/quoted on it's merits they have to dismiss the idea as not being sincere because it doesnt fit their own perspective.

I Hate War, I hapen to believe that there are times and places where it is an unfortunate nesessity.
I Hate Government, I happen to also believe it serves a nessisary funtion.
I Hate doing Laundry, however I believe it also is a nessisary evil that it be done.

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 10:01:13 AM

kdsub

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I believe McCain is of course trying to counter the impression that he wants or likes war by showing his and his family’s sacrifices.

I do not agree with him but he thinks war is necessary in Iraq and Afghanistan to assure our safety and standing in the world.

He is a good man trying to do his best for his country…I believe Obama is too and has better ideas but I respect both of them.

With political will and popular support either way of thinking could work…we will soon find out.

Butch

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RE: McCain's New Ad: 'I Hate War' - 6/17/2008 10:01:35 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Hitler had the ability to create enough fear in the populace to make them do anything he wanted.

Some kind of mysterious superpower, perhaps?

No, he just knew how to speak, how to lie, and how to decieve. He lied so well I wonder if at times he started to believe his own lies. Remember what Lenin said, "Tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
There was a poll several years ago taken in Germany and nearly a 1/3rd say that Hitler "was a good leader."

Notice the only thing that defeated the Nazis...was fighting them. Just ask the Russians. They lost 30 million people in that fight. Had they rolled over like the French....who knows...Hitler may have won the war.

You do realize your entire first paragraph could just as easily be said about Bush? And despite the evidence of incompetence and fraud he still has almost 1/4 of the US population believing he's doing a good job.

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