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More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/11/2008 5:16:16 AM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php

They've observed natural selection.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:48:41 AM   
pinksugarsub


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Status: offline 		Good article, farglebargle.
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 5:05:23 AM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
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Status: offline 		This is the essay I always suggest people read when we start discussing evolution:  http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 7:25:42 AM   
servantheart


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Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		Fascinating.  Thanks for sharing

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 11:34:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Seems odd to me that bacteria exist at all. They have been around since not long after day 1. Why didnt they evolve into different species years ago.
Same with sharks and crocodiles.

I bet Dom Ken knows.

By the way some bacteria are good for us so if the results of this experiment are true and  bacteria change into another species then we humans could be heading for the dusbin of history rather sooner than I thought.
On second thoughts tho', all that has occured is that bacteria have appeared with different morphological ( bodily) characteristics.
If a worm had appeared then sceptics like me would have to concede.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 12:14:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Seems odd to me that bacteria exist at all. They have been around since not long after day 1. Why didnt they evolve into different species years ago.
Same with sharks and crocodiles.

I bet Dom Ken knows.

I sure do.

The fact is they did. Your question, as usual, contains an incorrect underlying assumption.

The incorrect assumption that evolution is a linear process rather than a branching one. In many cases, including the one described in the OP's article, a single population, somehow isolated from the rest of the parent species evolves into a new species. Which of course results in both the old species and new species both still existing which is demonstrated in the OP's article as well. As that happens over and over again the initial single species that all life descends from has evolved into all the diverse species on Earth.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 1:58:35 PM   
LondonArt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Seems odd to me that bacteria exist at all. They have been around since not long after day 1. Why didnt they evolve into different species years ago.
Same with sharks and crocodiles.

I bet Dom Ken knows.

I sure do.

The fact is they did. Your question, as usual, contains an incorrect underlying assumption.

The incorrect assumption that evolution is a linear process rather than a branching one. In many cases, including the one described in the OP's article, a single population, somehow isolated from the rest of the parent species evolves into a new species. Which of course results in both the old species and new species both still existing which is demonstrated in the OP's article as well. As that happens over and over again the initial single species that all life descends from has evolved into all the diverse species on Earth.


In addition to this, some species haven't seen much evolutionary development for the past few millenia because they haven't needed to; they're adequately suited to their niches and have no particular selection pressures encouraging them to develop new traits.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:00:40 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Dom Ken as usual wants to have his cake and eat it.

This experiment specifically reports the tendency of bacteria to turn into different species. Nothing about branching at all. ie bacteria A evolves and turns into....errr wait for it... bacteria B
This is a linear process not a branching one.
Of course  when apes are considered as antecedents of humans then branching takes priority.
Cant lose if you are an N/esser.
Heads I'm right Tails you are wrong.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:02:46 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Dom Ken as usual wants to have his cake and eat it.

This experiment specifically reports the tendency of bacteria to turn into different species. Nothing about branching at all. ie bacteria A evolves and turns into....errr wait for it... bacteria B
This is a linear process not a branching one.
Of course  when apes are considered as antecedents of humans then branching takes priority.
Cant lose if you are an N/esser.
Heads I'm right Tails you are wrong.



......binary logic is rarely useful when discussing complex issues.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:08:26 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Philosophy: I will meet you in Dallas and slap your legs.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:09:48 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Philosophy: I will meet you in Dallas and slap your legs.


.......not if i see ya first........pffffttttt

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:25:24 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Dom Ken as usual wants to have his cake and eat it.

This experiment specifically reports the tendency of bacteria to turn into different species. Nothing about branching at all. ie bacteria A evolves and turns into....errr wait for it... bacteria B
This is a linear process not a branching one.
Of course  when apes are considered as antecedents of humans then branching takes priority.
Cant lose if you are an N/esser.
Heads I'm right Tails you are wrong.

So all the E coli everywhere became able to digest citrate? No. A single isolated population did. Which gives us both the new bacteria which does digest citrate but is otherwise very similiar to E coli and we still have E coli itself. So we have a branching not a linear process. Other populations of E coli will likely evolve other different new features therefore becoming additional new species. Which will create yet more branches.

BTW just go ahead and use the standard creationist canard 'if man evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys,' it's no less nonsensical than your attempts at paraphrasing it and I've already proven you use creationist sources so there really is no point in pretending these are your own objections.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:32:14 PM   
asyouwish72


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quote:

This experiment specifically reports the tendency of bacteria to turn into different species. Nothing about branching at all. ie bacteria A evolves and turns into....errr wait for it... bacteria B
This is a linear process not a branching one.


First,  let me say that these guys came up with a very clever experimental design. My hat's off to them. With that out of the way,

The article does NOT talk about E. coli evolving into a new, distinct species. In fact, it takes pains to point out that the entire concept of "species" does not really work effectively on the level of bacteria.

The important thing to understand about this experiment, and how it relates to evolution in the natural world, is the idea of selective pressure. The environment presented to the bacterial populations in the test flasks was quite distinctly different in terms of nutrient availablity from those areas in which E. coli is normally found. Specifically, the food sources available were quite limited. This meant that initial cultures were not able to exploit their environment optimally, and opened the door to improvements via mutation. Turns out (as anyone with a passing interest in biology can tell you) that Darwin was right:  the lucky few who ended up with a set of genes that improved their fitness won out, and came to dominate the population. It took a long time and it was a matter of chance, but the population changed into something that was better-suited to its new environment.

That's evolution. Game. Set. Match.

PS- As previously noted, the "sharks and crocodiles" argument is baseless. They have not changed becuase they have not had to- they are still optimized (more or less) for their environments. Nature sticks with what works.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:43:15 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I say that if the environment changes in such a way as to threaten the survival of a given species then that species will become extinct not change into another species. Happens all the time.

Keep throwing humans into the middle of the ocean and they will drown.
They will not revert to fishes. Am I wrong?

wrt to sharks being perfectly adapted, perfection is a chimera.
Its just convenient for N/essers to use that argument because they really dont know why evolution doesnt occur all the time and everywhere.
In fact there exists no evidence that it occurs at all.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:49:02 PM   
LondonArt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave


Keep throwing humans into the middle of the ocean and they will drown.
They will not revert to fishes. Am I wrong?



Do you get your notion of how evolution works from watching old episodes of Pokemon or something? Do you expect there to be a brief flash of light and tada, one individual has become a fish? How can one even have a meaningful discussion on whether evolution exists or not with someone who has such a fundamentally flawed concept of what it's even meant to be?

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:49:43 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting, but it was to be expected. Species that do not mutate become extinct.
 
All DNA replication molecules make replication errors - i.e. cause mutations. Molecular biologists have made bacteria with perfect DNA replication molecules that did not make such errors - and those bacteria became extinct; they simply could not compete with bacteria that did mutate.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 4:50:34 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: asyouwish72
The article does NOT talk about E. coli evolving into a new, distinct species. In fact, it takes pains to point out that the entire concept of "species" does not really work effectively on the level of bacteria.

The species concepts involved in discussing unicellular life is in general a fairly vague thing but in this case we are talking about a new strain of E coli which would be effectively a new species in a multicellular organism.

Specifically in this case E coli is defined, at least partially, by the organisms inability to digest citrate in the presence of significant O2. The strain under discussion can digest citrate in the presence of signficant O2. For a bacterium this is a pretty major change in metabolic action.

I'll leave it up to the philosopher types that like debating species concepts whether this new strain remains E coli, which as far as I know is this guy here:
http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/
He's pretty good about answering questions so if you want send him an email and clear a weekend to read his response.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 5:13:42 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I say that if the environment changes in such a way as to threaten the survival of a given species then that species will become extinct not change into another species. Happens all the time.

What happens depends on the circumstances, like for example the size, body mass and number of individuals in the population. Thus such a population may become extinct. On the other hand, it also may evolve to better suit and to be able to survive in its new environment. If so, then speciation may start to happen.

(To which I add that for theoretical purposes evolutionary biologists use the idealized concept 'species', whereas they are very well aware that the concept 'variaties' is more accurate.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Keep throwing humans into the middle of the ocean and they will drown.

Not true. Many will drown, but some will float for a time at least.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
They will not revert to fishes. Am I wrong?

Biologists are not aware of a mammal that is able to extract oxygen for breathing purposes from the salt water of the oceans and seas (nor from fresh water). (There is simply not sufficient oxygen in water to be able to support the mammalian metabolism.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Its just convenient for N/essers to use that argument because they really dont know why evolution doesnt occur all the time and everywhere.

You are wrong. The algorithms of the evolution process are functional in all species continually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In fact there exists no evidence that it occurs at all.

Simply look at clines. (I have told you this before.)

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/12/2008 5:14:16 PM >

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 5:20:28 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Same with sharks and crocodiles.

Because I can see pretty clearly that you plan to continue harping on this no matter how obviously wrong you may be I guess I best deal with.

Crocodiles and sharks are not two species that have remained unchanged throughout their existence.

There are hundreds of species of sharks alive today and fossil evidence for many other distinct species back throughout their history. A lot of them have stuck pretty close to what most people would recognize as a 'shark' but what of the rays? They are decended from sharks. Then what of a giant filter feeder that grazes the ocean eating plankton, i.e. the whale shark? What about the very eel like frilled shark? Another case where you used a creationist site that was lying and you didn't bother to investigate the matter yourself.

Crocodilians, all the ones alive to day look pretty similiar. They're all aquatic with visually similiar body plans with the major differences being stuff like adult size, placement of nostrils and prefered diet and changes to the jaw and teeth for the different diets. However there are a total of 22 species of crocodilians alive today, 2 gharial, 2 species of alligator, 5 species of caiman and 13 species of crocodiles. There are literally hundreds of of crocodilians known from fossils and some diverged quite a lot from the crocodile body plan. These include many varieties of both carnivorous and herbivorous fully terrestrial crocodiles that ran much like horses such as Pristichampsus. So it once again looks like you were spouting lies you got from a creationist website without bothering to do the most basic attempt at verification.

I'll remind you of something I've told you before, if you read it on a creationist website fact check it. More than likely it is spectacularly wrong.

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RE: More evidence supporting Theory o Evil-ution! - 6/12/2008 5:24:05 PM   
HandSolo


Posts: 323
Joined: 11/22/2007
Status: offline 		My go-to first link on the topic.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/


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