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Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 4:12:59 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Small Town Overthrows Corporate Giant for Control of Water
http://www.alternet.org/water/87182/?page=entire

In 2001, American Water purchased Felton's water system, which has been privately owned since the late 1800s, as part of its larger acquisition of Citizen's Utilities. Shortly after that, Essen-based RWE gobbled up American Water.

The trouble started in November 2002 when California American Water ignited furor in the Felton community, nestled amongst coastal redwood trees, with a 74 percent rate hike. In response, the Friends of Locally Owned Water was born and flew into action. FLOW fought to reduce the amount of the rate hike, urged Santa Cruz County to create a public agency to control the water system and opposed the company's plan to merge the Felton and Monterey water districts.

...

Meanwhile, back in Felton, there was no backing down. Its purchase offer brushed off, the community turned to eminent domain to force a buyout. Cal-Am responded by doing all it could to make the system seem more expensive. Its appraisal valued the system at $25 million, far more than Felton's $7. 6 million offer. This was based in large part on Cal-Am's assertion that the 250 acres of watershed land should be valued based on the revenue that would be generated from selling the timber and the land for commercial development, a position the community hotly disputed.

Eminent domain proceedings in California have two parts -- the "right to take" hearing before a judge to determine whether the purchase serves the public interest, and a "valuation" trial in which a jury decides how much the property is worth. In both cases, Cal-Am's legal tactics caused delays and increased expenses for the SLV Water District. Finally, the company conceded the public's right to take the water system and settled the acquisition price without a trial.

-----

I find this heartening. Nothing so critical to the good of all belongs in private hands. When you're the only game in town it's pretty easy to imagine you can easily extort any price you like for your product no matter how unreasonable.

Lesson learned?

Oil and gas companies beware. We come for you.
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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 8:29:44 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		While I am generally against eminent domain, because it has so often been abused in my mind. This seems a matter of taking back something that was being abused, and maybe a fair and rightful use of it.
As to using it against the oil companies, still think that a 0.2% change in the overal ownership of world oil reserves isn't going to make any difference.


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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 11:53:24 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro


Lesson learned?






           Hmmmm.  Is it, "the system works," or "centralized control is a bad thing?"

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 3:46:24 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Well, you're either in it for civilization or you want something else.

With your thinking we should decentralize the cops, firemen, schools, postal services, have endless toll roads, etc. The free market will save us, huh?

Everyone but you seems to know that's an utter absurdity.

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 4:15:11 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		This would be the first case of this law being used to give to people rather than take from them that I have ever seen.  Amazing.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 5:04:18 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Ironically,  the eminent domain process used to be applied for the purpose of compensating a few individuals for the good of many, as in building roads, hospitals, power plants and such.

Then came the mutation toward turning loads of private property into corporate profit through the public coffers...which led to the Kelo case.

In Kelo, the USSC correctly ruled that instead of expecting the courts to come running to protect them, the people should force their representatives to rewrite the laws so that eminent domain couldn't be abused like that.

Beyond unbelievable that a corporation would now expect to be protected from 'baaaaaad old eminent domain' being used to give the people back their power plant.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/8/2008 5:05:32 PM >

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 5:26:06 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Well, you're either in it for civilization or you want something else.

With your thinking we should decentralize the cops, firemen, schools, postal services, have endless toll roads, etc. The free market will save us, huh?

Everyone but you seems to know that's an utter absurdity.



            Ummmm, Sugar?  Cops, firefighters, and schools already are very decentralized, and under local control, and my water district may soon be breaking away from a larger bureaucracy entirely.  Not sure you where you got the toll-roads part.  My taxes quite legitimately pay for those, but I still like calling a county office to get it fixed.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/8/2008 7:10:35 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		So, you're a socialist?


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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 6:05:03 AM   
corsetgirl


Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		I remember eminent domain being used in the northwestern area of my neighborhood that is known as Murdock Village or as some people would call this "Murdock Pillage".  After that incident, state legislature passed a law regarding eminent domain making it difficult for companies and government to hastily to conduct these proceedings. 

This loan is costing the taxpayers $14,000.00 per day.  County commissioners also botched a proposal to sell this property to a developer and have dragged their heels too much for the past 2 years!  I know I am going to vote each incumbent commissioner out and replace them with someone who understands the community.  I would love to see this property sold to a local university to promote educational opportunities and increase revenue.

I think this is an excellent article for property to be in the hands of people, not a corporation or company who feels the need to take over and serve their interests. 

< Message edited by corsetgirl -- 6/9/2008 6:07:09 AM >

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 6:59:37 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

So, you're a socialist?





       You seem to be working from a very small sheet of labels, Sugar.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 9:24:54 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		human rights do not trump the rights of entities that are not human.

corporate free speech,  vs vegie dissing laws per allar apple scare.   in addition to rights that surpass humans, responsabilty is expected of the human, but not say the corporate entity.

hey you!  dont post the audio tune happy birthday.  royalty to time warner is 10k per "use".

Archer Daniel midland, their seeds blow onto your land, then they sue you.  [trade marked]   if i let my dog gain entry onto your land, then i am in trouble.

corporate charters are never pulled.  they [after 1888] do not have to serve the public good.

so the public is human.

download a song-  that is illegal- well own the LP, and the human is NOT innocent until proven guilty..but then must prove that he paid for use.   Do you have the reciept to the LP you bought in 1978?

a life form can now be trademarked.



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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 12:16:08 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Churro, in liberal Massachusetts wealthy people own many beaches on the shoreline, they're considered "private property" and you can be arrested for walking on "their beach.!" (Tresspassing) No public access!
Many of those people will probably vote for Obama but he can't walk on, "their beaches."
So, in Massachusetts (That bastion of liberalism!) a black man can be arrested for walking on the beach.
"We're liberal, but we're not THAT liberal!"
Here in S. Carolina you can walk on any beach and they all must have "public access."
Go figure!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/9/2008 12:18:01 PM >

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 12:23:53 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Popeye, usually I let your unbounded ignorance go unchecked, but some times even I have to call it.  South Carolina has several hundred miles of private beaches.  It also has the largest concentration of "gated communities" (meaning ordinary citizens cannot drive on the roads or otherwise use any "public" areas) in the Southeast. 

So what was your comment about Massachussets, again?

E.

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 6/9/2008 1:04:46 PM >

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 2:07:48 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Popeye, usually I let your unbounded ignorance go unchecked, but some times even I have to call it.  South Carolina has several hundred miles of private beaches.  It also has the largest concentration of "gated communities" (meaning ordinary citizens cannot drive on the roads or otherwise use any "public" areas) in the Southeast. 

So what was your comment about Massachussets, again?

E.


Gee Emperor, that's mighty nice of you overlooking my ignorance!
You're a real stand up guy!
I grew up in Massachusetts and I've been thrown off plenty of private property beaches... many times!
Unfortunately for the Citizens of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts the laws of the 1640's gave all property rights down to, "mean low tide" to the shoreline property owners which means they own the property down to the middle of the "wet sand" at low tide.
The public "can" walk in that "wet sand" area "beyond" the "mean low tide line" "if" they have a fishing line for fishing or gun for "fowling". But, there is no "frolicking" allowed on the dry sand or "upwards" from the "mean low tide line" by the public as this would be considered "tresspassing" on private property. That must be where I went wrong, I shouldn't have "frolicked!"
Oh! You can swim in that area but,..."your feet can't touch the sand." lol
This has been contested in the courts many times and the courts have always upheld those laws.
I'm surprised that there are *any* "public beaches" in Massachusetts!
There are some that were taken by eminent domain by the local municipalities or bought from owners but most of the coastline is privately held and inaccessable to the public.
And don't even *THINK* of trying to walk on the beach on Martha's Vinyard or Nantucket where "The Beautiful People" ..."summer" unless it's on one of the few "public beachs" and I don't know if they even have any left down there.
They all have their own fully armed private security forces!
"Hey Buddy! Come on over here, we need to have a talk with you!"
Can't have the papparattzi taking pictures of Carly Simon going topless now can we?
A lot of those properties have been owned by the same pasty faced Yankees who sunburn easily with the Legacy  "degrees" from Hah-Vid, "YALE",  Princeton, and all the other degree factories for 8 or 10 generations and they *do not* want people like you or me walking on their beaches! PERIOD.
If you don't belong to the *Nantucket Yacht Club* and pay $15 for the BLT or Tuna samiches up on the second floor there you're not, "their kind of people!"
"Good tuna today, eh?"
"Yup!"
We're talking *MAJOR* Trust Fund Babies!
And they don't  want any "new money" down there and they hate the "Hollywooders!"
Now, here in Myrtle Beach,S.C. you can walk on the beach for 60 miles from the N.C. border past multi-million dollar homes and condos down to Georgetown .
I can drive down to Hilton Head Island now and walk on the beaches around the whole island.
Yes, we have "Gated Communities" but they don't "own" the beach like in Massachusetts.
They have "Public Access" laws here and by law have to have marked access -ways to the beach, many times the marked path will be between two multi-million dollar homes.
The state law is written in small print on the bottom of those signs I believe.
As far as I'm aware the public is not restricted from walking or "frolicking" on any beach in this state but I could be wrong as I'm not from here.
I've never seen any signs saying "Keep Out! Private Beach!" like in Massachusetts.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 2:09:40 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Looks like everybody has their own brand of untouchables...

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/9/2008 2:26:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Looks like everybody has their own brand of untouchables...


Kittin, yup, that's Massachusetts for you!
"We're liberal, but we're not THAT liberal!"

Kittin, in 1986 I was on the CG patrol boat "Cape Morgan" homeported out of S. Portland, Maine.
We were on "Southern Patrol" around Cape Cod and the islands for two weeks.
We pulled into Nantucket harbor and tied up right next to the Nantucket Yacht Club.
A guy came over and asked us if we wanted to have a few beers in, "The Club."
We said sure and 5 or 6 of us went with him up to the second floor and he sat us down at a table in the corner.
There were about 15 or 20 people sitting at the bar.
It was dark in there except for the big window behind the bar overlooking the harbor and we could see them a lot better than they could see us.
One of them an older gentleman was actually wearing white linen trousers and a dark blue blazer with brass buttons and  an ascot tied around his neck.
They looked at us but otherwise didn't make any contact with us.
I picked up a menu that was sitting up against the wall and that's where I saw the "$15 tuna and BLT sandwhiches" on the menu!
I said to the other guys; "Holy shit, look at this, $15 for a fuckin' tuna fish sandwhich!" This was in 1986!
My Cheif sitting next to me said to us, "I wonder how many of those people sitting at that bar are worth at least $100 million dollars?"
After an hour or so the guy comes back over to the table and gave us all blue and white ball caps that said "Nantucket Yacht Club" on them and said, "Ok, time to go."
We asked him how much we owed for the drinks and he said kind of laughing; "Oh, that won't be neccessary.
And he escorted us out. And that was it.
Strange!
Kind of creepy actually. Like they just wanted to look at the Coast Guard guys up close or something.
Looking back now I bet there was a few billion dollars of net worth sitting at that bar!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/9/2008 3:29:20 PM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Eminent domain works! - 6/10/2008 7:16:17 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Popeye, usually I let your unbounded ignorance go unchecked, but some times even I have to call it.  South Carolina has several hundred miles of private beaches.  It also has the largest concentration of "gated communities" (meaning ordinary citizens cannot drive on the roads or otherwise use any "public" areas) in the Southeast. 

So what was your comment about Massachussets, again?

E.


Emperor my good man, did I answer your question to your satisfaction?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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