Oil: A global crisis

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SugarMyChurro -> Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 9:46:19 AM)
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/oil-a-global-crisis-834023.html The invasion of Iraq by Britain and the US has trebled the price of oil, according to a leading expert, costing the world a staggering $6 trillion in higher energy prices alone. The oil economist Dr Mamdouh Salameh, who advises both the World Bank and the UN Industrial Development Organisation (Unido), told The Independent on Sunday that the price of oil would now be no more than $40 a barrel, less than a third of the record $135 a barrel reached last week, if it had not been for the Iraq war. ----- I don't know if I agree with everything in the article, but it does provide some interesting topics for conversation. I found the part quoted above of particular interest because it suggests that the economic crises we face around the world were created by the Iraq War debacle and its continued mismanagement. Mismanagement? Or is this result exactly what was desired? This is a great time for the uber-elite - grabbing at oil profits with both fists and investing in real estate while prices remain low. Because it's never the cash, its always the real property you can buy with it right now! Unless you are starving, and then you want food (but I am going to assume that the engineers of this "global crisis" want of nothing). Some indicators suggest we are looking at the hardest downturn in property values since the 1930s.

Alumbrado -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 10:31:39 AM)
So does that make those who claimed the invasion of Iraq was a way of getting cheap oil into gas tanks in the West look any more unbelievable than they did before?

MadRabbit -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 10:44:18 AM)
There is so much theory and speculation as to why the oil prices are so high that it's hard to know what exactly is causing what, but in my personal opinion, if we subtracted all the bullshit, we would still have a number that was double what it was ten years ago simply because it's a finite resource that is being depleted and requring more work to get. This won't be the popular opinion, but putting aside my own personal fiancial situation and how the prices are affecting it and looking at the issue in a big picture sense, the price of a barrel of oil is our savior right now. I guarentee if it was at 40 a gallon and we weren't being raped at the pump, nobody would give a shit. It would be like the 70's all over again. We would have had a small wake up call as to what the future is holding and then once the prices settled out, we would go right back to wiping our asses with oil as a lubricate like it's water. Brazil was smart enough to make the tough calls to achieve energy independence, but it took the near economic destruction of it's country in the 70's to move it in the right direction. America, on the other hand, with it's attention span of 3 seconds, could give a shit less about an issue until it stops them from watering their lawns on Sunday morning and driving their kids to soccer practice on Saturday afternoon. The fact that gas prices have been so low for the last 30 years was what got us in this mess in the first place. The oil companies were smart. They knew if we had to pay an outrageous amount at the pump, it would drive us to alternative energy. It was in their best interest to sell oil cheaply because it was preserving their buisness. A buddy of mine showed me a magazine article the other day he had saved in storage. It was back from the 70's and older than I am. It was an article that talked about hybrid engine models with 60-100 miles to the gallon. If this technology has been around for 3 decades, why isn't it widely available on the market now? Because we have been babied and fed gasoline on a golden platter and since it wasn't an immediate problem and not stopping soccer practice or watering of lawns, nobody gave a shit. Now we're paying the piper. We were warned, but it fell on deaf ears. The oil companies are once again doing smart business. I think they realize their cash crop has a shelf life on it that is getting closer and closer and are now trying to make sure they squeeze every dollar they can out of it. The real question is whether it's too late or not to redesign our infrastructure before the shit really hits the fan. Personally, I am not too optimistic and leaning more and more to the Road Warrior scenario.

subfever -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 10:51:16 AM)
quote: If this technology has been around for 3 decades, why isn't it widely available on the market now? I'll give you three guesses.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 10:52:35 AM)
Fuck! This is actually the subject of another thread already. Hmmm, although they did list this article second...and FWIW, I am personally less focused on the peak oil scenario. Just sayin'... [:-] Some good observations there, MadRabbit.

Alumbrado -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 10:53:23 AM)
quote: America, on the other hand, with it's attention span of 3 seconds, could give a shit less about an issue until it stops them from watering their lawns on Sunday morning and driving their kids to soccer practice on Saturday afternoon. The fact that gas prices have been so low for the last 30 years was what got us in this mess in the first place. Except that gas prices in the US have been artificially high for the last 30 years. Ranting about oil depletion is just another distraction from the current crisis of price fixing monopolies engaging in gouging at a obscene rate.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 11:24:45 AM)
Take a look at gas prices in Europe...7, 8, 9 dollars a gallon? And you are saying it is artificially high in America?

awmslave -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 11:25:42 AM)
From today's news: "German leaders are to propose a worldwide ban on oil trading by speculators, blaming the latest spike in crude prices on manipulation by hedge funds. It is the most drastic proposal to date amid escalating calls from Europe, the US and Asia for controls on market forces, underscoring the profound shift in the political climate since the credit crunch began. India has already suspended futures trading of five commodities. Speculators are split, with some betting that oil will fall Uwe Beckmeyer, transport chief for Germany's Social Democrats, said his party would call for joint measures by the G8 powers to prohibit leveraged trading on energy contracts. "It's an extreme step but it has to be done," he told the Berlin media. Mr Beckmeyer said the last 25pc rise in the price of oil to $135 a barrel had nothing to do with underlying supply and demand. “It’s pure speculation,” he said."

Alumbrado -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 11:39:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Take a look at gas prices in Europe...7, 8, 9 dollars a gallon? And you are saying it is artificially high in America? Are you seriously unable to grasp what I actually said, or are you just trolling? . BTW, when gas was pushing $4 in the US, quote: Cuba Havana $3.03 Taiwan Taipei $2.84 Lebanon Beirut $2.63 South Africa Johannesburg $2.62 Nicaragua Managua $2.61 Panama Panama City $2.19 Russia Moscow $2.10 Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74 Egypt Cairo $0.65 Nigeria Lagos $0.38 http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/ So yeah, 'A - R - T - I - F - I - C - I - A - L - L - Y' manipulated to be higher in some places, lower in others And they aren't being manipulated to be 38 cents a gallon in the US.[8\|]

Archer -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 12:24:25 PM)
Lets be specific about which onopolies are getting the real profits. Nationalized Oil Companies make even Shell and Exxon Mobil look like small players. It's the nations who have the Oil Nationalized ( a large, larger now that Chavez has done it too, portion of OPEC). "77 percent of the world’s oil reserves are held by national oil companies with no private equity, and there are 13 state-owned oil companies with more reserves than ExxonMobil, the largest multinational oil company." from a NYT article http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04oil-t.html Want to know who's making most of the money just take a look at the list of nationalized oil companies.

MadRabbit -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 1:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: America, on the other hand, with it's attention span of 3 seconds, could give a shit less about an issue until it stops them from watering their lawns on Sunday morning and driving their kids to soccer practice on Saturday afternoon. The fact that gas prices have been so low for the last 30 years was what got us in this mess in the first place. Except that gas prices in the US have been artificially high for the last 30 years. Ranting about oil depletion is just another distraction from the current crisis of price fixing monopolies engaging in gouging at a obscene rate. Fair enough. I might be wrong in my conclusion, but I meant low in comparison to what we are paying now. I am not saying that the current prices are byproducts of the fundamentals of supply and demand and not the result of bullshit nor am I saying it's NOT an issue. I'm just saying that there is a benefit coming from it.

MadRabbit -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 1:08:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Fuck! This is actually the subject of another thread already. Hmmm, although they did list this article second...and FWIW, I am personally less focused on the peak oil scenario. Just sayin'... [:-] Some good observations there, MadRabbit. Oops [8\|] Sorry It's all one big connected issue anyways.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 4:03:37 PM)
Notice in those countries with cheap gas....they are oil producers....not oil consumers! The United States is an oil consumer...not only oil consumer but a gasoline consumer. We are refusing to increase our own domestic oil production and we are refusing to build our own refineries. We only produce 12 million barrels a day domestically. Our current consumptions is 20 million. So that means we have to buy our oil from other people and we become a slave to the market prices and rising demand of other countries like China. So how do you lower prices? Two ways... 1. Lower consuption. The problem is that we would need to lower it by more than 4 million barrels a day to make much difference. And that wont be easy and may even be impossible. 2. Increase production and build more refineries. Unless one of these two occur....gas will continue to go up and up and up and up... What would be excellent if we can do both those things....then gas prices would plummit! So if you want to blame someone for high gas prices... blame the environmentalists and the US Senate who wants to give government funding to stupid ideas like bio-diesel (which actually uses more energy to produce than what it puts out).

Alumbrado -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 4:11:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611 Notice in those countries with cheap gas....they are oil producers....not oil consumers! The United States is an oil consumer...not only oil consumer but a gasoline consumer. We are refusing to increase our own domestic oil production and we are refusing to build our own refineries. We only produce 12 million barrels a day domestically. Our current consumptions is 20 million. So that means we have to buy our oil from other people and we become a slave to the market prices and rising demand of other countries like China. So how do you lower prices? Two ways... 1. Lower consuption. The problem is that we would need to lower it by more than 4 million barrels a day to make much difference. And that wont be easy and may even be impossible. 2. Increase production and build more refineries. Unless one of these two occur....gas will continue to go up and up and up and up... What would be excellent if we can do both those things....then gas prices would plummit! So if you want to blame someone for high gas prices... blame the environmentalists and the US Senate who wants to give government funding to stupid ideas like bio-diesel (which actually uses more energy to produce than what it puts out). Puerto Rico, Taiwan, and Cuba are bigger oil producers than the US? And the rest of your post is just repeating what I already said, after you had argued against it. Having fun trolling?

cyberdude611 -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 4:13:04 PM)
It's supply vs demand. Those countries produce more than they consume.

LadyEllen -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 4:15:06 PM)
As I understood it, China subsidises fuel for the consumer. If theyre subsidising to keep consumer prices low, and we're taxing it out of the range of consumers, and their consumption is therefore increasing as they grow wealthier as ours is decreasing as we get poorer...... E

Alumbrado -> RE: Oil: A global crisis (5/27/2008 4:29:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen As I understood it, China subsidises fuel for the consumer. If theyre subsidising to keep consumer prices low, and we're taxing it out of the range of consumers, and their consumption is therefore increasing as they grow wealthier as ours is decreasing as we get poorer...... E Nationalized companies owned by the government (and that is what China is doing, all appearances to the contrary), may in fact subsidize production...certainly the case with the bicycle, shoe, and other industries... seems to me that is done more as a patriotic strategy to undermine foreign competition than to ease the budgetary burden on the average Chinese citizen. But I was referring to the diversion of public monies for the profit margins of BP and Royal Dutch Shell, and the Saudi Royal family...

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