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Level -> Oil (5/26/2008 12:45:12 PM)

Just in case you were having a bright and sunny day....

quote:

Oil is a finite resource, and there will come a day, inevitably, when we reach the highest amount of oil that can ever be pumped. Beyond that day - which we can think of as the topping point, or "peak oil" as it is often called - will lie a progressive overall decline in production. Putting the same question a different way, then, at the current prodigious global demand levels, where does oil's topping point lie?
This is a question, I contend, that will come to dominate the affairs of nations before this first decade of the new century is out.
 
Already, a battle is raging, largely behind the scenes, about when we reach the topping point, and what will happen when we do. In one camp, those I shall call the "late toppers", are the people who tell us that 2 trillion barrels of oil or more remain to be exploited in oil reserves and reasonably expectable future discoveries. This camp includes almost all oil companies, governments and their agencies, most financial analysts, and most business journalists. As you might expect, given this line-up, the late toppers hold the ascendancy in the argument as things stand.
 
In the other camp are a group of dissident experts, whom I shall call the "early toppers". They are mostly people who - like me - have worked in the heart of the oil industry, the majority of them geologists, many of them members of an umbrella organisation called the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO). They are joined by a small but growing number of analysts and journalists. The early toppers reckon that 1 trillion barrels of oil, or less, are left.
 
Should the early toppers be right, recent history provides clear signposts to what would happen. There have been five price peaks since 1965, all of them followed by economic recessions of varying severity: after the 1973 Yom Kippur War; in 1979-80 after the Iranian revolution and the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq war; in 1990, with the first Gulf War; in 1997, with the Asian financial crisis; and in 2000, with the dot.com collapse. The most intense peaks were the first two. In 1973, the oil price more than doubled, reaching around $35 per barrel in modern value. The cause was an embargo by Opec, led by Saudi Arabia, and triggered through overt American support for Israel at the time of the Yom Kippur War. World oil supplies fell only 9 per cent, and the crisis lasted only for a few months, but the effect was simple and memorable for those who lived through it: widespread panic.

 
Now, Mr Journalist may be correct on all of the above, but one thing he writes is bothersome, in a different way:
 
quote:

Some sports utility vehicles (SUVs) average just four miles per gallon. The SUV market share in the US was 2 per cent in 1975. By 2003 it was 24 per cent. In consequence, average US vehicle fuel efficiency fell between 1987 and 2001, from 26.2 to 24.4 miles per gallon. This at a time when other countries were producing cars capable of up to 60 miles per gallon.

 
Doesn't he make it sound like these "4 MPG" SUVs are everywhere? And what vehicle is he talking about, the Hummers? It's not like there are millions of them roaming the streets. Anyway...
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about-the-coming-oil-crisis-523830.html


More cheer-filled reportage: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/oil-a-global-crisis-834023.html




FullCircle -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 12:52:02 PM)

You know what I'm going to say Mr Level I've said it so many times.

Still no one is asking where all the by-products of oil are going to come from in the future. There are alternatives to burning oil as an energy source now but not many alternatives to some of the crucial chemicals we require for our everyday lives.




Level -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:01:21 PM)

FC, one of the articles talks a bit about that, but you're right, it is seldom thought of, or mentioned.





FullCircle -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:15:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
FC, one of the articles talks a bit about that, but you're right, it is seldom thought of, or mentioned.


I'm glad I'm not alone in my thinking then. I heard someone say in another thread that they needed their SUV to move all of their kids around. When I was ten I walked to school it was one mile and 120 steps up over the common, when I was 11 I walked three miles to secondary school. Parents would never allow their children to walk now and face all the hyped dangers of modern society and that is why they have their SUV's because it is an extension of their protected environment where everyone outside their bubble is a threat to them.
 
They have SUV's either because everyone else they know have SUV's or they make the correct assumption that an SUV will better survive an RTA.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:18:18 PM)

when I went to school I had a bike and a bus pass... I lived up in rose park (15 minutes N of downtown SLC via car) and went to school in Kearns (About 45 minutes SWof Downtown via car) bus passes are a lot cheaper than gas for an SUV or a minivan




LadyEllen -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:19:56 PM)

Just imagine, if we chose to develop alternative sources of power generation...... compressed air motors for electricity in every home, hydrogen powered vehicles et al

- no more foreign entanglements for oil; it would hardly matter to us what with the small amount we need for byproducts
- no more fear of the Saudis, Iranians, Russians and others whom we have pissed off, who right now can make us hurt
- a whole new economic boom in developing, installing and maintaining these new technologies
- an abundance of skilled, well paid jobs in the new economy
- the environmentalists are happy and can find something else to bang on about
- huge reductions on spending on foreign entanglements, to finance universal healthcare in certain backward parts of the west

Sad that the losers in the above scenario are those not only winning from the current scenario, but perpetuating it through campaign donations and lobbying. More sad that the winners in the above scenario are those losing from the current scenario and powerless to change a thing.

E




christine1 -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:25:30 PM)

i'ts cloudy and cool and rainy Level, i wasn't having a sunny day...no worries there.

my problem right now is that i dno't have an alternative way to get to work.  the shop just moved so far away i cna't even get there by bus early enough for starting time...i dont' have a choice other than find a closer job, and finding a new job at entry level will be a challenge that pays what i'm getting now.  maybe i need to find a way to figure out gas prices versus wages and see what i can live with in the end.  [8|]




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:30:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

FC, one of the articles talks a bit about that, but you're right, it is seldom thought of, or mentioned.


Big Agro uses a fuck of a lot of oil to sustain chemical farming.




LadyEllen -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:33:50 PM)

I see your problem every day Christine - or at least I did when I was a commuter. Hundreds from each town set off to work in another town, whilst people from that town set off for the first town or yet another town. The roads are clogged, emissions are through the roof and wages suffer from both employer and employee viewpoints.

And all the time, I always wondered - how many of those people are doing jobs which they could swap for one almost the same in their home town, saving two or more people the hassle and expense of commuting, saving the emissions and saving the wage budget at both ends? (and incidentally, cross pollenating a lot of businesses as people move around between companies)

A few simple changes to the tax regimen, a simple online job swap system and it could all be made possible.

E




christine1 -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:37:00 PM)

you make a great point LadyE...that view of things hasn't crossed my mind yet.  too bad there isnt' a way to get that idea and message out to the masses, although i already know there are more than a few ways to do so.   it really does make a lot of sense.




pahunkboy -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:41:48 PM)

we could be ok if 3 billion humans left the planet.

this is a new day.   to keep cool - i might buy some lattace board.   i was trying to find a real way to have a solar hot water for one in household/  no luck.

outdoor shades can be good- but they are so cheaply made.   i could maybe buy some material rig it up.

YOU- lone you, must think of new ways to use items, stuff, bric-a-brac.   

Today I scored BIG on freecycle.  raced my pick up truck over to get free white picket fence. [wood]   yeah- it looks shabby.   i think it is made of hardwood.   the plastic fences lowes sells- 7 years later- i predict they will look junky.   here with some effort- scrape down wood- throw on stain- [marked down due to color error]  


My point is- to deal with the new world that is here- you MUST find plan b.


...I got my mountain bike up and working. I ride all over now.   It is good cardiovasculer.  I put on my crime watch outfit- and zig zag all over town.  I can tell the ones on probation as they look sorta frightened.

On crime we have made progress in 1 years time.

Im one of very few who use a bike to do the watch.  I can ride thru a park- thru to the river- etc.   I can pop out of no-where.

:-)




SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:44:09 PM)

i think many more folks are looking at commute time as a job benefit.  right now, i have a 5 mile commute one way.  another school came open, 20 miles away,  that would have gotten me about a 4k a year raise.  but when i sat down and did the math, figuring fuel costs and vehicle wear, not to mention my time, i decided it would be close to breaking even, if not a loss for me.

good luck finding something close to home.  normally id be at the lake today, but i refuse to spend the gas money to get there.  thinking ill go ut me a $300 pool for the back yard to use this summer.....it will be cheaper than driving to the lake.

blech.....gas prices suck




Level -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:49:01 PM)

If we can put a man on the moon, we can solve the energy crisis.
 
Hell, right now, the Ford Escape SUV gets 34 MPG in the city; no one can convince me that we can't do even better.




LadyEllen -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:50:39 PM)

I wonder how much of the "breakdown of community" can be put down to commuting?

Twenty years ago, when I went to my bank the people there were locals, some known to me personally. Nowadays theyre all from out of town. Replicate that across all the shops, offices and so on, and it would seem that we have no community because in fact we have other peoples' communities in our town every day, whilst our community is away working in the dozen or so towns surrounding us.

Of course, there are drawbacks to my alternative - if your own townspeople are working in the town, everyone gets to know everyone's business, as well as their face and name. My colleague out in Czech had a particular issue with the bank clerk telling his mother in law about his banking habits in the small town where they all live.... an extreme example  of where it can go wrong perhaps. But the benefits of knowing everyone and everyone knowing you, like in the old days must be good surely?

E




MadRabbit -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 1:50:50 PM)

We can work towards global warming and a climate shift in the U.S. for sugar cane production.

But...seriously, I have serious doubts anything is gonna happen until people wake up and realize this isn't just another scam by the oil companies to rape the general population, but the beginnings of the end.

I give it another year. The majority isn't ready to face the cold hard reality that they are going to have to give up and change their lifestyles.

When it hits 5 dollars a gallon this summer, people will begin to wonder what the hell are they going to do when it hits 10.

I manage to function off 2 tanks of gas a month and once my business opens next month, I have no idea how much sales and marketing trips, supply pickups, and trips to clients houses to provide my service will jack up my gas usage.

With a little luck and some really smart planning, hopefully I will manage to develop a client list before the expenses to promote my buisness capsize me.





MrRodgers -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 3:08:48 PM)

Forget oil...drill all you want...production is in fact on the rise everywhere...currently the world has plenty of oil. Venezuela, Russia and Iraq and all western non-opec nations are doing all they can to put out more oil and doing so despite various impediments.

The price of ALL commodities are determined by the paper-traders...(futures) the speculators. It is NOT real supply and demand.

Drill Alaska...why ? Is that oil cheaper than the rest ? Every barrel of oil pumped and in the ground is about $130-$135 dollars per...none is any 'cheaper' than any other. The speculators have and will continue to discount any additonal production.

Much Alaskan oil is as we write being sold...to Japan. Will Anwar oil also be sold outside this country ? It could be...once we lease it to them...it is owned by the oil companies and they are free to sell that oil anywhere and it won't be here.

If we were really serious and we are not, we would have long ago tapped the gas nitrate in the Gulf of Mexico where there is enough if harvested even reasonbly...to power the US in its entirety for 1000 years. Plus, if we don't get that gas up from the shallow ocean floor...it could prove to be a future environmental crisis if not catastrophy. It is rich in CO2 and some CO. Harvested correctly it is of little threat while the cleanest burning of all fossil fuels.

Yes, we need to eventually get off fossil fuels and only our advances will tell us if it is going to be 50 OR 100 years before that happens Few of us here now...will be alive when it does.




azropedntied -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 5:30:30 PM)

there has been an energy crisis since the 70's that i can remember , Now that it is hitting wallets people want the problem solved and solved now .The bummer part is profits are also at record levels so the "solvers" do not really care to solve anything .If demand drops so would the prices .
To get something  like alternative fuels we need infrastructures , as well as the vehicles using the autos as the example .I see all kinda  flex fuel cars here in az yet i have yet to find one single refuel stations .
Just like Arizona  and much of the southwest has Tons of free sun yet no massive solar  generating stations .Instead they "the city state and feds" leave that up to the individual home owner to install  at their expense .Now there is also talk of killing the rebates on home solar systems too , yet the big fat ass oil companies got their tax breaks .BTW the Hummer gets 8 mpg  a lil more on the hwy , the h-2 does slightly better , not that that is still a good thing  nor do i want or need one .  




Termyn8or -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 9:59:43 PM)

Y'know, if we had a good education system, and people really learnt something it would be different. We could all be making fifty bucks an hour an have plenty in the bank, and they could raise it to ten bucks a gallon and we would not bat an eyelash.

When it went from thirty-five cents to seventy-five cents, people bitched, but it blew over. When it went to a buck again people bitched, but it blew over. Took it a while to get to two bucks, but again it blew over. Now we are looking at four, and we are not even done yet. when it hits seven bucks alot of people are going to bitch, but not one is going to do a goddamn thing about it.

The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. They don't care that we need to get around, they got jets and shit. They could care less what gas costs, even for a Lear jet. Believe me, I may have not been in that exact situation, but close. Have you ever seen a sticker inside a Lear jet that says "Ass, gas or grass, nobody rides for free" ?.

They simply don't care, they know the dollars they pay for the fuel are worthless, and they want to get rid of them. Amma tellya, any MF who has any real money has most of it in metals or something other than  US currency.

And if you are qualified to argue against this, I would like to know how many island nations you own.

Just so you know, the people who taught me showed me boxes of diamonds. They looked pretty white. Guy throws them in a cigar box. Guy says "You can't hurt diamonds, well you can but it is pretty fucking hard". I can't tell you if he intended the pun.

The people who run the oil game are on top right now, and there is not a damn thing we can do about it at the moment. Live with it, the rest of us are. I know it sucks, and I know it is going to get worse.

Any rebellion could get ugly. You get cocky because you have a hundred pounds of meat in your deepfreeze ? all they have to do is cut your power off. Got a generator ? Just what fuels it ?

See we are fucked no matter which way we turn, but we still have that one trump card.

Just stop.

It's like a boycott, and IIRC we have the Jews to thank for that idea. It was a very good idea, a way for people to make their voice heard and do it in spades, mainly in the pocketbook. The problem with it for us though, is that we have no solidarity. Try to stand outside a Blockbuster and talk people out of renting DVDs, how far do you think you'll get ? What's more, the sheeple are a slave to this shit. You might get your ass kicked.

There is no easy way out, if you think there is I got this oceanfront........nevermind.

T




MadRabbit -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 10:34:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

If we were really serious and we are not, we would have long ago tapped the gas nitrate in the Gulf of Mexico where there is enough if harvested even reasonbly...to power the US in its entirety for 1000 years. Plus, if we don't get that gas up from the shallow ocean floor...it could prove to be a future environmental crisis if not catastrophy. It is rich in CO2 and some CO. Harvested correctly it is of little threat while the cleanest burning of all fossil fuels.


1000 years, huh?

They must have skipped over that when developing this analysis.

According to the OPEC, the US consumes roughly 20.7 million barrels of oil a day. That's roughly 7.5 billion barrels of oil a year.

Are you suggesting that there is roughly 7.5 trillion barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico?

Or are you just making up numbers to continue to pretend that it's never gonna happen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Yes, we need to eventually get off fossil fuels and only our advances will tell us if it is going to be 50 OR 100 years before that happens Few of us here now...will be alive when it does.


Uh...I think your estimate is a little off.

Once again, the prediction for 2008 global consumption by the OPEC is 87 million barrels a day. Thats roughly 31.8 billion barrels a year. If we have 1 trillion barrels of oil left on the planet, that gives us roughly enough oil for 31 years. If we have 2 trillion, that's 60 years.

So based off the estimates above, it will, in all probability, happen in MY lifetime at least.

Here's the article where I got my numbers.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JE24Dj02.html





Leatherist -> RE: Oil (5/26/2008 10:39:02 PM)

Which is why we need to begin to develop an infrastructure with electric powered vehicles NOW-not when this expensive polluting shit runs out.




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