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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 8:59:41 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Now thats one thing CL - an ally that is useful. But its a whole other matter to hold that one has to win over a group of one's own electorate by promising that ally certain benefits.

If our politicians stood up and promised benefits to India and Pakistan to win the votes of Britons whose ethnic origin is traced to those countries, we'd have uproar (or should have).

E

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 9:24:31 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Most Americans overall favor Israel over Palestine. Americans identify with them because Israel is a democracy and a target of terrorism. So when Obama says that he favors Israel...the only people he risks upsetting is the far-left who will vote for him anyway.

America has also been supporting Israel politically and militarily for over 60 years. That type of support is very unlikely to change no matter who occupies the White House. The US knows it needs Israel as it's the only true democracy in the region. The CIA and Pentagon also get a lot of intelligence-sharing from the Israelis. And Israel knows it needs the United States. So this relationship is not going to change.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 5/23/2008 9:25:05 AM >

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 9:26:07 AM   
Leatherist


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Status: offline 		And Israel has the bomb. They could trigger world war three if they are pushed up against the wall.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 9:40:50 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

But its a whole other matter to hold that one has to win over a group of one's own electorate by promising that ally certain benefits.

Agreed, but that too is a consequence of history.  The storied and fairly bloodied history of anti-Semitism around the world makes many of the Jewish faith (certainly all those I have ever met and conversed with) keenly interested in the survival of the Jewish state.  Support for Israel thus becomes an expression of their religious and ethnic identity, and for political candidates, the way to connect with that segment of the electorate.


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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 10:39:46 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		I don't know about ya'll, but I really don't want to hear any presidential candidates "pledging support" for foreign countries!
Hows about they start "pledging support" for the United States of America?
He's after the "Jewish vote?"
What about the "Irish-Scottish" vote?" There are around 44-50 million people in the U.S. of Irish or Scottish (Celtic) heritage, has Obama made any statements about supporting Ireland or Scotland?
There's a LOT more votes there than the "Jewish vote!"
Does he even know who the leaders of Ireland or Scotland are?
And just what does "support Israel" mean, is he saying that he'll make sure that they get their annual kiss of $3B or whatever it is compliments of the U.S. Taxpayer?
I "support" Israel, I just don't want to give them any money.
There's too many lawyers and *lobbyists* in Washington making vast sums of money from "foreign aid."
He's contradicting himself there, hasn't he said that he's no friend of the "lobbyists?"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/23/2008 10:41:04 AM >

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 11:57:11 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Most Americans overall favor Israel over Palestine. Americans identify with them because Israel is a democracy and a target of terrorism. So when Obama says that he favors Israel...the only people he risks upsetting is the far-left who will vote for him anyway.

America has also been supporting Israel politically and militarily for over 60 years. That type of support is very unlikely to change no matter who occupies the White House. The US knows it needs Israel as it's the only true democracy in the region. The CIA and Pentagon also get a lot of intelligence-sharing from the Israelis. And Israel knows it needs the United States. So this relationship is not going to change.



As I pointed out earlier, pro-Israeli propaganda in the American media is all pervasive so it is not surprising the majority of Americans are pro-Israeli. Also let's not forget the fundementalist religious nuts that see the rebirth of Israel as a prelude to the end of the world. I have never heard a modicum of truth about the origins of the conflict in the middle east mentioned in the American media. If you believe what you read in the American media, this conflict started with the birth of Palestinian resistance in the 60s, not with the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians twenty years earlier. Yes, ethnic cleansing. Let's nail the lie here and now, the Arab countries didn't tell the Christian and muslim Arabs to leave while they anihilate Israel at its birth in 1948, the British told many to leave for their own safety (rightfully so with the masacres inflicted on teh Arabs, the zionists being the first to start the masacres and terrorism) . Israel had a well armed and trained army of 35,000 men, the Arabs had 20,000 and they were not united, the best Arab fighters were 8,000 men of the Arab Legion led by British Officers who were only ordered to hold their defensive lines against Israeli attack which is what they did and not take offensive action which they didn't. The Syrians refused to give the local Arabs weapons to defend themselves and were pretty half hearted in helping the ethnically cleansed Arabs so all this talk about a united Arab front is bullshit.

As for Israel being a true democracy it isn't. It is an ethnic based society, basically and apartheid society, Arab Israelis do not have the same rights as Israelis so the idea that Israel is a true modern democracy is also as lie. Try being an Arab who wants to buy land or take a full and active role in the economy, you can't. It is not disimilar to the old apartheid South African regime where only whites had a democracy.

The US for reasons only itself knows, supports Israel's human rights crimes and its illegal actions of land theft and protects Israel with its veto in the UN when no other democratic nation will support Israel. So when the likes of Bush talks about civilized values and international law, the whole world laughs at the hypocrite.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html

Is Israel the 51st state?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/23/2008 12:18:58 PM >

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 12:16:30 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		The difference though popeye, is that he is speaking in Florida. And Florida has an odd population blocs of Jewish voters and of Cuban-American voters. Obama is trying very hard to win over those voters. And those voters are not likely to vote for Obama as long as he keeps up his "change" message.

The Cuban-Americans who make up a huge chunk of the population in Dade and Broward county (Miami area) do NOT want a change of policy with Cuba. They want the sanctions to remain, Obama does not. So he will lose that bloc to McCain on just that issue alone. The Jewish voters in Florida feel the same way with Israel.

Florida is a critical swing state with 27 electoral votes. Bush won it in 2000 by only 537 votes. The reality is that if Al Gore would have supported keeping Elian Gonzalez and supported a tough stand against Cuba...he would be our president today. Clear and simple. That's how important these voting blocs are in Florida. They can determine the election.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 12:50:55 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Florida can't be that important to the Democrats if the Democratic National Committee won't even count the votes in Florida or seat their delegates at the Democratic National Convention.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 4:09:44 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Why the US is so blindly pro Israel is a complete mystery to me.
Shows where the power really lies I suppose.
Meatcleavers post 26 says it all.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 4:18:13 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

It's mostly historical habit.  During the cold war Israel was the one reliable ally the US had in the region. 



During the cold war America had a few Allies in the region. One being Saudi Arabia..... And that Shah fellow from some place or other. Ring any bells ?

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 4:22:16 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		And to sit here and claim that the Palestinians share no blame at all in the conflict displays ignorance. To Americans, there is no justification for strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing up a supermarket filled with innocent women and children. No justification at all. Attacking civilians is not the way to gain support from the American people, government, or media.

The Palestinians will never have their own state unless 2 things happen:
1. The countries around Israel switch to democracy (since wars dont typically happen against democracies)
2. The Palestinians give up terrorism and dissolve their alliance with Hamas and Hezzbollah.

Until those two things happen, the status quo will not change.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 4:48:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And to sit here and claim that the Palestinians share no blame at all in the conflict displays ignorance. To Americans, there is no justification for strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing up a supermarket filled with innocent women and children. No justification at all. Attacking civilians is not the way to gain support from the American people, government, or media.


Not as much ignorance as you my friend. Read your history. The origins of the conflict was the mass immigration of European Jews organized by the zionists into Trans-Jordania and backed by the then British Foreign Minister Balfour. Before that there was no conflict between Jews and Muslims in the region.

Have your land sold from under your feet or stolen at gun point and then told by foreign powers tough on you. It was the crime against the Arabs of Tran-Jordania that gave them the collective identity of being Palestinian.

Jump to 1948, the Israelis had planned the ethnic cleansing of the Arabs (plenty of Israeli documentation that proves this) and used terrorism and the masacre of women and children to frighten the Arabs into fleeing (once again there is plenty of Israeli testimony proving this). The Arabs didn't have a plan of resistance and what aid they had which Israel and the US tout as pan Arabs wanting to annihilate and drive the Jews into the sea was a disorganised and ill armed rag tag of an army because the Arabs had never planned to drive the Jews into the sea.

As for 'Attacking civilians is not the way to gain support from the American people, government, or media.' This is exactly what Israel does and gains support from the Americans people, government and media.

 To Americans, there is no justification for strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing up a supermarket filled with innocent women and children. But to Americans it is justifiable to murder women and children from the protection of a helicopter or an F16



quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
The Palestinians will never have their own state unless 2 things happen:
1. The countries around Israel switch to democracy (since wars dont typically happen against democracies)


The US and Israel doesn't believe in democracy if it isn't their version of democracy, otherwise they would have talked to Hamas who immediately requested talks with Israel when they were voted in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

2. The Palestinians give up terrorism and dissolve their alliance with Hamas and Hezzbollah.

Until those two things happen, the status quo will not change.


They are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters. Both Hamas and Hezzbollah are the products of Israeli aggression and terrorism. Without Israeli human rights crimes, aggressive pre-emptive wars and illegal occupation and annexing of other peoples land, those 'terrorist' organisations wouldn't exist.


If I was you I would do some serious research into the middle east conflict because you are obviously fed on the pap I was talking about.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 5:03:26 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

It's mostly historical habit.  During the cold war Israel was the one reliable ally the US had in the region. 



During the cold war America had a few Allies in the region. One being Saudi Arabia..... And that Shah fellow from some place or other. Ring any bells ?

Start with the word "reliable" and go from there. 


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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 5:20:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

It's mostly historical habit.  During the cold war Israel was the one reliable ally the US had in the region. 



During the cold war America had a few Allies in the region. One being Saudi Arabia..... And that Shah fellow from some place or other. Ring any bells ?

Start with the word "reliable" and go from there. 



What, like the reliable ally that almost sunk one of your ships ?
The fall of the Shah was partly brought about by his westernising of Iran, and his close links with the US.  Your idea of a counter argument is to either attack the other poster, use the word strawman, or make silly comments like the word "reliable" .
Like i said, the Shah was a staunch ally of America and built very close ties.

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/23/2008 7:02:05 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And to sit here and claim that the Palestinians share no blame at all in the conflict displays ignorance.



Oh and cyberdude, there was a rather powerful documentary on the BBC not long ago where several Israeli soldiers in 1947-8 said they were part of a brigade who had been given orders to masacre Arab civilians as a policy to cleanse land of Arabs. One of the soldiers admited to taking part in a masacre where he  slaughtered (his description) a family of five children and their pregnant mother. Admitting it seemed to be a cathartic experience to him. He went on to say that their (Israeli army) crimes at the birth of Israel is probably the reason why Israel is still in conflict after 60 years.


I doubt such a documentary would be shown in the US because the truth would be too uncomfortable for the pro-Israeli media and lobby. 


Oh and as for the US's belief in democracy.

http://nickdupree.blogspot.com/2007/08/this-day-in-history-us-overthrows-iran.html

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2703.shtml

http://www.democracynow.org/2003/9/11/sept_11_1973_a_cia_backed

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/23/2008 7:52:58 PM >

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RE: Obama promises "unshakable" support for I... - 5/24/2008 9:55:29 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Why the US is so blindly pro Israel is a complete mystery to me.
Shows where the power really lies I suppose.
Meatcleavers post 26 says it all.


Seeks, I agree, "Allies" like England and the U.S. "help" each other.
When is the last time Israel gave us $4 billion dollars?
During the first Iraq "War" they wouldn't even let them retaliate against the scud missles for fear of "angering" the Arab world.
Some "Allie."

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