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Owner59 -> The List (5/18/2008 5:14:04 PM)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/60minutes/main4103104.shtml Remember "Schindler`s List". There is a similar type of list today,in the middle east. Over a hundred thousand Iraqis who trusted us and stepped up to help,are now targets. This unlikely young man has helped 86 people(so far) who would have been murdered had they stayed. His "list" has over a thousand names on it and all he does now,is try to help people who helped us and were thrown under the bus and now live in fear. For me it points out just how badly the neo-cons fucked up,from beginning to end.(one example:The Europeans have helped all their Iraqi associates,we have helped a paltry 5000.The Swedes,not even in the war,have taken over 40,000). It also gives me hope that heroes like this young man are around. We could use more men of character like him.

Termyn8or -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 12:12:08 AM)
I hate to be nasty, but the truth is the truth. Why aren't the neocons using these people as poster children ? That would be of great value in mustering a more acceptable level of public support for their actions. But I guess it isn't going to happen, because they don't want those people here, they want them there. This is what megalomania does to people. So full of hubris, they will step on your head to reach a bowl of sugar and get pissed off if they crush your skull in the process. Those are the exact motherfuckers that we need to get out of the positions of power in this world. We need leaders, human ones. T

Justme696 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 12:40:11 AM)
besides that there are 2 sides to Schindlers story....i know what you try to say. It is sure good to see such people. It is not all bad what happens there. They are just lost in their own country Neither all Irakies bad people. My neighbours are Irakies..and one of the most nicest people I know. They are very kind and modern. I guess if you let these peopel be....they will be not much different from us.

Archer -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 5:30:04 AM)
Owner the problem with helping these people by "taking them" is that you end up with less "good guys" in Iraq where the average Iraqi needs these good people. Take all the folks who helped and remove them from Iraq and where does that leave Iraq? Not saying we do enough or that what we have done so far is the best we could have. Just asking the obvious question that runs counter to the idea of helping the individuals by removing them from their country.

kittinSol -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 5:32:32 AM)
Perhaps those that are considered to be collaborators and traitors in their own country because their actions benefited the United States could be given the choice whether to obtain asylum here or not? Choice is good.

Owner59 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 5:45:29 AM)
Well Archer,the problem is the middle class/merchant class/Dr.-lawyer types(and anyone who can afford to) have all left Iraq years ago,creating the largest refugee crisis since WWII. As to your point,it`s kind`a to late to worry about who we force/try to stay/keep there. If you watch the '60 Minutes' piece,it`s clear that these men(and woman) are marked for death and the only way to save them is to extract them. The experts have figured that out and that`s why the Europeans took their advisers/translators(and their families) with them when they left. What stands out for me is that Sweden,a country uninvolved in the war,has taken over 40,000 and we`ve (the world leaders)have taken 5000. That`s an international embarrassment and a shame. I recommend that members watch the linked 60 Minutes vid. You`ll see an example of a true hero.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:01:14 AM)
quote: Remember "Schindler`s List". There is a similar type of list today,in the middle east. "Schindler's List" huh? Interesting... And the accusation is that these "neocons" are condemning them to death by not rescuing them and bringing them to the US. Well that would make the opposition, ummm lets see, I think the word for the "Schindler's List" protagonist was - NAZI. Is that right? I know bringing the Nazis into an argument is a defeatist position; however in this case - you don't have a "Schindler's List" without 'Schindler's Nazis'. That would indicate your position is that we are fighting 'Nazi' like people who have 'Nazi' like ideals, and have reached the 'Nazi' level of evil. But you also have a Chamberlain-like position of appeasement? How did that work against the 'Schindler's List' people who ran the camps? How did Chamberlain's chat negotiations with the Nazi's go for the people of Checkoslovakia? But, you support the position of negotiation with the people who are "similar" to Schindler's Nazis? It would indicate that you believe the radical Islamics or whoever, and however you'd reference on the other side of the battle lines from the US in Iraq are the equivalent of Nazis? That would put you squarely behind the opinion of President Bush. Interesting... I thought the locals who are fighting us were a good, religious, dedicated people fighting invaders, who only want to live in peace but for US aggression. Now they are Nazis? Or is this just a convenient reference and comparison without thought? Don't get me wrong - I think there should be an immediate withdraw of ALL US troops from the entire Middle East area - immediately; This would allow the local tribes to get on with their 4000 year ambition of killing each other. It may also facilitate the development of a replacement for oil. But that would only come if the Corporate interests being served by the military presence couldn't buy political clout - so that won't ever happen.

NorthernGent -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:30:46 AM)
Ain't got no halo, no wings to fly away I've got to labour for many, many days I'm on a journey, I'm looking for a place To rest my burdens, far from this tyranny

Owner59 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:37:18 AM)
Relax Merc,I said "similar" list.You can stuff all of your implications.They are in your own mind,not mine. The list of names this guy has,is refereed to as"The List",over there.It`s real and a life or death situation. Did you watch the piece I linked? It`s a fucking desperate situation there.I`m surprised you`d make light of it with a hi-jack about nazi/neo-con/terrorist/ideology comparisons.

Owner59 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:49:25 AM)
Since you`re defending neo-cons,care to step up and sponsor a family from Iraq? Added: My family (who were against the Viet-nam war)sponsored a Vietnamese couple,the male of which,would have died had he been made to stay there. My brothers and I were just UMs at the time and eventually they moved to south Jersey. We went to his daughters wedding about 15 years ago to find he had 4 daughters.Now he has grandchildren.

kittinSol -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:51:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth radical Islamics Perhaps you meant radical Muslims? Or even radical Islamists, althought 'Islamism" is a controversial term? "Islamic" is an adjective, not a noun.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:55:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Relax Merc,I said "similar" list.You can stuff all of your implications.They are in your own mind,not mine. The list of names this guy has,is refereed to as"The List",over there.It`s real and a life or death situation. Did you watch the piece I linked? It`s a fucking desperate situation there.I`m surprised you`d make light of it with a hi-jack about nazi/neo-con/terrorist/ideology comparisons. Yes - I saw the show and made the same comments. It's not a hi-jack. You either believe the comparison and raise the issue, as you do; or you don't. You want to only take one side of the comparison because it suits your agenda. It comes with another side that doesn't serve that agenda and I can understand you not wanting the point raised. How can you accuse me of "implications" when you made the comparison, you started the thread? You said similar to Schindler's list. To be similar it requires a similar protagonist, or did you have the not so bad 'foolish Nazi's' of Hogan's Heroes or the funny Nazi from 'The Producers' in mind? How is pointing out the specifics to the reference used making "light". If anything it should strengthen your argument. However, if you now want to back off the comparison - feel free to disagreed or discount the similarity you raised. And on awakening to another beautify day in SoCal, with a naked beth by my side, soon to bring my morning coffee in her own special way - I assure you I'm "relaxed". Thanks for your concern. quote: Since you`re defending neo-cons Where? How? Or is this another "similarity" that isn't similar? quote: care to step up and sponsor a family from Iraq? No - I keep my charity domestic; but may consider it in the future.

Justme696 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 6:57:37 AM)
Getting the good people out of there..seems good. But why take people out of their own country. And in whom's eyes should they be good? Bit weird sounding...we move in..and we move people out. Sound like the world up side down. well..not much else left either. I thought about if it wise to let them all be. But that wouldn't be fair, because they didn't ask for this.

Owner59 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 7:10:27 AM)
Would you or anyone hesitate to reach out an arm to a drowning victim? This is pretty much the same thing. There`s no time to consider the political considerations here. That`s a luxury for armchair generals over here.Right Merc?

kittinSol -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 7:11:38 AM)
These people worked in capacities such as interpretors for the Americans: they're branded as collaborators as a result. So what, if they need a safe haven? The least that can be done is that it is provided for them. Unless you agree that people should be used up and thrown away like dirty rags... which is pretty much what's happening to them right now. I suppose the good thing is that if this goes on, pretty soon nobody will want to assist the Americans in their dirty work - thus slowing down 'progress' considerably.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 7:14:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Would you or anyone hesitate to reach out an arm to a drowning victim? This is pretty much the same thing. There`s no time to consider the political considerations here. That`s a luxury for armchair generals over here.Right Merc? Don't know - I don't consider myself one, or even similar to one. Do you? I'm here for the debate and discussion, in this case following through with your original contention. And since you raised the reference - What if the drowning victim was, or had the potential to be, Hitler?

Owner59 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 7:56:38 AM)
To the frisky Merc,stop it.You`re [sm=offtopic.gif]. This thread is about people we`re throwing to the wolves for no apparent good reason.(presently,here and now,today,in real time,etc) It`s not hypothetical. Could the reason be that it would look bad to evacuate them out? Would you let a guy drown,if it would be politically embarrassing to save him? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Better yet,instead of hypotheticals,answer this. If by saving these people from sure death,the Bushies think they`re admitting defeat,should we let them die to save the Bushie`s pride? That`s a steep price to pay for the pride of assclown neo-cons. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we abandon them,no one will ever trust us again.

kittinSol -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 7:59:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If we abandon them,no one will ever trust us again. Owner, I fear this may have happened a little while ago [>:] .

popeye1250 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 8:19:38 AM)
Didn't Egypt say they'd take them in?

Justme696 -> RE: The List (5/20/2008 8:22:59 AM)
quote: Would you or anyone hesitate to reach out an arm to a drowning victim? Me? no. But I play on a local market..not the world. Human sacrafice means nothing to some people.

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