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RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 12:47:27 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Also consider how good the Government are at keeping personal records in this debate. How would people feel about pictures of their children being on a government database and how long would they stay there before getting lost in the post?

Didn't they say something about identifying children so they didn't slip through the net of the various government departments, this government would take DNA samples from newborn babies if it could it has already suggested a national DNA database which changes the whole premise of innocent until proven guilty.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/19/2008 12:56:44 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 1:11:17 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We take photos of children, to eliminate them from enquiries - not because they might have done something.




That explanation does not fit the facts and works to a presumption of guilt rather than one of innocence.  This is at the heart of objections to profiling; the practice proceeds from a wholly contrary perspective to British legal ethics.  Why do social conservatives stress the importance of saving such values but disown them when those on the left ask that they be preserved?


Really? Does it really work to the presumption of guilt? Honest?

Of course, there's always that annoying little thing called context; the quote you took had a preceding paragraph which indicated the conclusion you came to, to prove what point I'm not sure? perhaps to boost your post count?

E 

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RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 2:12:07 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Really? Does it really work to the presumption of guilt? Honest?

Of course, there's always that annoying little thing called context; the quote you took had a preceding paragraph which indicated the conclusion you came to, to prove what point I'm not sure? perhaps to boost your post count?




Ellen, you make me laugh.

Firstly, your original post's first paragraph was way off-beam.  In it, you implied that taking these photos was an alternative to profiling when, of course, they are a function of it. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Ellen
we can justify the photography and even DNA being taken, by an unholy coincidence of right wing war mongering which provokes anger and left wing liberalism which forbids profiling Muslims


(emphasis added)

Ignoring the conflation of islamophobia with youth justice issues, it certainly appears to me as if you had not grasped that these photographs actually derive from the police adopting profiling techniques.  If that is not the case, perhaps you'd care to give your statement's actual meaning in another form? 

It's pointless to get up in the air about it, if your original post was poorly explained or simply wrong.  Funny, though.

However...

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 2:15:11 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

to prove what point I'm not sure? perhaps to boost your post count?




How dare you suggest I simply want to boost my post count?  Do we get Airmiles for this stuff?

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 3:23:17 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Perhaps I should signal my sarcasm more effectively for you RL?

The point is that the left forbid profiling, which then encourages the right to fulfil their wish to catalogue everyone - and allows them to.

The innocent must be catalogued to establish their innocence by this mode of operation, which suits both sides in their aims, but doesnt suit us nor any system of justice we have inherited or developed since Magna Carta.

E



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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 4:35:32 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Perhaps I should signal my sarcasm more effectively for you RL?


No, it was quite leaden enough first time around and all the more amusing for it.  You're just too subtle for the likes of me, is that it?


quote:


The point is that the left forbid profiling, which then encourages the right to fulfil their wish to catalogue everyone - and allows them to.


Let's see if I 've got this: the "left" forbid something - so presumably they are in control?  And then the "right" go even further - because they are now suddenly in control?  Somehow, the "left" forbidding something allows the "right" to do it anyway? 


quote:


[wibble, wibble, wibble wibble... system of justice we have inherited or developed since Magna Carta.



Ever wonder just how much importance Magna Carta was accorded by Wat Tyler and friends?  The myth of Merrie Englande was never helpful except for when it was a harmless diversion for the kids who are now steadily being criminalised by our police.  

Point scoring against "left" or "right" is just as partisan and non-productive as adopting either stance, when it isn't backed with constructive alternatives.  In the  climate of this forum, its simply playing to the grandstands - a convenient stance that  allows people to moan and gripe without taking a position and sticking to it; to criticise without having to face criticism oneself. 

If you social conservatives ever wake up, you'll realise civil liberties should not be only the province of the left - that its up to us all to protect and preserve childhood because most of the world's children don't really have one.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 6:28:38 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Seeks i wasnt on about profiling, i was on about taking photos of innocent kids. I see you didnt answer my question, as to whether you would be happy if it was you and yours being photographed. The key words here are "Innocent people"

Kittin, sadly there is a firm in the Uk installing chips under childrens skin. Parents are doing this incase the kids go missing. I am all for keeping kids safe but this could also have sinister implications.

Lady E in my first post i pointed out the law being used was called section 60, of the public order act. This was in force way before 9/11


Somebody catch me upon one detail... are the police rushing up to children who are doing absolutely nothing wrong, and slamming them up against the wall for mug shots?

Or are these youths walking down the street in plain view of the public...including video recording of the public scene, and having their images captured before the police make contact?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 6:41:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		"Scotland Yard has admitted its officers have been photographing children who are stopped and searched even after they have been found to be innocent. (...)

Last week, Sandra Moodie told how her son Jordan had been stopped and searched by plainclothes officers on his way home from school. They found he was carrying only school books, but took his picture. (...)

In a statement, the police said: "The [Met] has, since 1998, employed the tactic of overtly photographing or filming persons in the street as a way of preventing offences, gathering evidence and intelligence and identifying offenders."
The Guardian


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 6:50:53 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Thank you... I find that sort of action more Orwellian than Sherlock Homesian.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/19/2008 9:38:37 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Maybe Im missing something, and Im not British but whats the big deal? I mean really - who cares? I am a respectable law abiding citizen and I can think of no fewer than 25 govt agencies that have my photo, fingerprints, or DNA on file for various things. I mean seriously to get a texas drivers license requires a photo and thumbprint, pistol permit photos and full sets of fingerprints on state, local, and FBI cards, military has my photo, prints, and DNA and so forth. Everybody from the Texas Dept of Public Safety, to the FBI, to the Dept of Defense, to the BATF, to the TSA and numerous others have my pics etc and I dont care... Whats more, we deliberately had the police take fingerprints, mugshots, and DNA on my exwifes kids just in case god forbid they were ever abducted or lost.... We thought that was a GREAT free public service and child safety tool. Whats the harm here?

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 2:48:03 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		DomAviator, the point you are missing is this. No one gave permission, the kid was unlucky enough to be in a crime hot spot area. As for the free service of cops taking DNA from kids, maybe not everyone wants that. Most here in the UK dont.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 3:43:10 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
You're just too subtle for the likes of me, is that it?


It would seem so.

btw - whats a "social conservative"? Is that like Dennis Thatcher? He always seemed "socially relaxed" and was a conservative - or do you mean something different?

E



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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 3:58:24 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Tee hee hee.

www.google.co.uk

Try "social conservative" as a search term.  Have a mirror handy.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 4:07:27 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		One of the quirks in Britain is that people are really attached to individual liberties, which is why they tend to argue when the authorities pull tricks like that. Ironic, no?

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 4:52:28 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Social conservatism is a political or moral ideology that affirms behaviors associated with a culture's traditions. However, the accepted meaning of traditional morality often differs from group to group within social conservatism. Thus, there are really no policies or positions that could be considered universal among social conservatives. There are, however, a number of principles to which at least a majority of social conservatives adhere.

So, you are way off the mark. There is litte to nothing of this culture's traditions as they are now, or as they may have been in the past that I see worthy of promoting or affirming.

What I see as worthy of promoting and affirming is an evolution of all the cultures we have now, into a more coherent form, to produce a new British culture, taking what is useful from all the sources available. The right and the left are deadset against such an evolution, taking as it would the rug from under both.

It would be a very dangerous game indeed for someone like me to promote and affirm traditional cultural values and morality - and that goes for every traditional culture and morality system here present; oh yes, how I'd love to return to the days of the likes of me being put in an insane asylum so as to maintain public decorum et al, or to promote the sort of values that would have me stoned in the town centre or hanged from a crane.

E

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 9:38:58 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I'll try to remember to remind you of this statement the next time you go off on your Maggie Thatcher trip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
It would be a very dangerous game indeed for someone like me to promote and affirm traditional cultural values and morality - and that goes for every traditional culture and morality system here present




I've yet to discover the correlation between the practice of photographing youths and community policing.  I had thought the idea of community officers was that they got to know as many locals as they could through positive channels. Anybody have any knowledge around that?

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 10:15:28 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		My only "Maggie Thatcher trip" RL, is the one where I tell everyone what I think of the bitch! I can find nothing of merit in what she did and little in what she did with which we are still not living today and regretting it.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 10:35:13 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Well whatever else there was merit in bringing down rampant inflation, and ending the constant strike culture of the 60s and 70s.

RL, i think the authorities think everything can be done with a computer, and eliminate the need for human contact. Cyber cops in the extreme.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Cops and cameras - 5/20/2008 11:06:32 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Adolf Hitler managed the same economic turnaround in Germany though PS53! And interestingly, by similar strategies even if her tactics were less draconian (though thats a matter of debate if one ventures into Notts/Yorks).

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 59
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