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Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 11:59:00 AM   
MladyHathor


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Status: offline 		By the First ammendment?  

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:17:15 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		yes.  BUT that does not negate standard community laws from applying.  In fact little has changed.   If it was illegal before WWW, it still is.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:19:16 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Can't be protected by the first ammendment..because that law is local and the www stands for world wide web  .
So if you do soemthing wrong..and leave the country..you still can be arrested.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:20:29 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		Wouldn't you fall under the jurisdiction of your isp's location?

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:20:31 PM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
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From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		Well the "internet" is a bunch of privately owned smaller networks that are connected to each other.  There isn't anything displayed or stored anywhere.  Websites and such are stored on servers which are also privately owned but generally publicly accessible via the internet.  As far as laws are concerned, what is placed on websites is protected by the 1st amendment but that protection is granted to the person or persons that actually own the servers that house the information.  Whoever owns the servers is free to place whatever rules they wish to in terms of allowing or rejecting information from other people.  In other words, whoever actually owns the servers and the network is free to censor all they want just like I can rent my front yard for signage but be within my rights to allow or reject which signs are posted.

Also don't forget that the "internet" is more than just in the US and that the our constitution only applies to us inside our borders.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:24:43 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		WWW doesnt void local law.

not as far as harming others.  the PLACE, jurisdiction that YOU DO the MISDEED, is THE area where you can be prosecuted.

being in an international forumn doesnt cancel local law.    yet that doesn mean it is enforced....

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:27:33 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Status: offline 		Nice post Musical, but please allow me to elaborate
if the hosting server and you are both in the USA then yes, it is covered by the first ammendment, just like any other medium is (in theory)
if either or is outside the US then technically no, however cases in which legislation would actually be brought against anyone is rare, as for that to happen both countries must first reach an agreement on the "crime" in question

just some crap ya pick up when ya do network&internet for a livin :P


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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:27:40 PM   
MmeGigs


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Status: offline 		If one is in the US, I imagine that it is as far as the govt and law enforcement and such are concerned.  Speech is speech, no matter where it takes place.  That's not to say there are no limitations on online speech.  Since most of us pay for access to the internet, our speech can be restricted by our ISP.  They get to decide what's okay and what's not on their system.  We agree to the terms of their AUP and TOS when we sign up, and if our online speech violates those agreements, they can boot us.  Same thing with discussion venues - they can limit discussion to certain topics or moderate the group to control content.  We agree to those terms when we sign up.

Sadly, those internet venues that allow completely unrestricted speech generally end up overrun by spam and crap.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:31:40 PM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Here in Europe local law counts..but with internal  swap contracts (sorry don't know the right words) they can deliver criminals to other countries.
Depends on what you do..and how bad the crime is.

An other point is...we can download movies and music freely here, but still some people get arrested for doing it when they enter the US.

Personally I think it is hard for authorities to decide how to handle. Mostly used rule is...the law of the country where the server is located counts.
(that is why many servers are in Atigua or in Russia or East Europe. )



quote:

our speech can be restricted by our ISP

isn't that a contradiction when there is freedom of speech?
BEcause only "judges"can decide when a rule is broken? ISP have no |law| authority ?




< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/16/2008 12:35:26 PM >

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:41:55 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Status: offline 		its a bastardized way to do it, but has more to do with a service providers right to refuse any non-essential service for any reason... they are hurting your free speech, just deciding not to carry it... however, in most cases the isp in question doesnt bother to watch what you are doing, as its way too much work

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:42:02 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		thats the thing- if you want to hang where anything can be said, IE nutty stuff, flaming, ---it is spam and chaos and not too enjoyable.

there has to be reasonable guidelines. 
most TOS indicate no illegal stuff.

so figure it is like yes free speech but no on yelling fire in a crowded theator

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:45:16 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696


quote:

our speech can be restricted by our ISP

isn't that a contradiction when there is freedom of speech?
BEcause only "judges"can decide when a rule is broken? ISP have no |law| authority ?





Incorrect, an ISP has ALL of the authority as they own the service and are simply allowing you access for a fee.

(and thanks Asher)

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 12:57:15 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
quote:

our speech can be restricted by our ISP

isn't that a contradiction when there is freedom of speech?
BEcause only "judges"can decide when a rule is broken? ISP have no |law| authority ?

It's important to know what the first amendment's protections of speech and press really means. It does not allow you to use other people's or entity's property to disseminate statements without their permission.

If you post something on this forum and the mods, acting as agents for the owner, or the owner deletes your post you have no recourse. However if the government at any level said you could not discuss BDSM, for instance, that would be unconstitutional and wouldn't likely last very long.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 3:16:16 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor

By the First ammendment?  


Depends on who's breaking down your front door.  If they're Chinese, Russian, Iranian, or Bush devotees, not a chance in hell.

If they're Democrats, you're protected only as long as you sign every email with "George Bush is a thief and a liar".

If they're libertarians, they probably just need to use the bathroom REAL bad.


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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 3:23:07 PM   
Asherdelampyr


Posts: 9556
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696


quote:

our speech can be restricted by our ISP

isn't that a contradiction when there is freedom of speech?
BEcause only "judges"can decide when a rule is broken? ISP have no |law| authority ?





Incorrect, an ISP has ALL of the authority as they own the service and are simply allowing you access for a fee.

(and thanks Asher)



no prob... I deal with crap legal problems all the time at work, so I know the score :P


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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 3:32:52 PM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696


quote:

our speech can be restricted by our ISP

isn't that a contradiction when there is freedom of speech?
BEcause only "judges"can decide when a rule is broken? ISP have no |law| authority ?





Incorrect, an ISP has ALL of the authority as they own the service and are simply allowing you access for a fee.

(and thanks Asher)



Just curious..who controls the ISP/forum-owners's that they do their work correct. It could lead to censorship..not? (if they just delete one opinion)

Also.. if I can find the link back I post it...a judge said..that a forum (online or offline) is a legal way to have freedom of speech..(wether moderated or not)..and there for an ISP/forum owner can not forbid you to say what you think. (they are not above the law not? )
I think personally many people don't fight the ISP or forum owners over such things. To much time and money.

Also the TOS (mentioned above) over here in Holland can't "officially"not be changed while you are in the middle of the contract. Not even when it is mentioned " this TOS can be changed when we want to". The reason for this is...this wasn't the situation that you "signed" for. (which is logical to me, because you don't want your bank to change your rates either)

I guess the rules/laws online..when you interact with other countries..are pretty unclear.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 5/16/2008 3:36:46 PM >

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 3:34:41 PM   
Asherdelampyr


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Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline 		In America, because it is a free-market economy, there is no true censorship, internet service is not yet regulated the way gas & power are, so its a matter of a private company getting to do whatever they want (since, in theory, you can go to a different ISP)

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 4:13:11 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Justme, the differenced is freedom of speach means freedom from the Government restricting it. I and any other individual is free to limit your speach any way and for any reason good or bad when you are on our property. (ie I can run you off the property rather than let you speak your mind) That does not prevent you from speaking your mind only prevents you from doing it on my property you can shout from the sidewalk but you can't do it from my yard.

The ISP is their yard, want freedom of speach you have to provide your own yard/ server otherwise you are a visitor on someone elses property.

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 5:05:47 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

...Also the TOS (mentioned above) over here in Holland can't "officially"not be changed while you are in the middle of the contract. Not even when it is mentioned " this TOS can be changed when we want to". The reason for this is...this wasn't the situation that you "signed" for. (which is logical to me, because you don't want your bank to change your rates either)

I guess the rules/laws online..when you interact with other countries..are pretty unclear.



Sometimes things get written into TOS's that aren't legally feasible but sound good. 

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 5/16/2008 5:06:16 PM >

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RE: Is the internet protected? - 5/16/2008 5:29:50 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor

By the First ammendment?  


Depends on who's breaking down your front door.  If they're Chinese, Russian, Iranian, or Bush devotees, not a chance in hell.

If they're Democrats, you're protected only as long as you sign every email with "George Bush is a thief and a liar".

If they're libertarians, they probably just need to use the bathroom REAL bad.



*snort*


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