in the ghetto........

in the ghetto........ (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 5:38:14 AM)
Here in sunny north Worcestershire we have some fine old market towns; although the industry has mainly been removed over the last decades, there is still a lot of prosperous areas here – alongside what have been described as ghettos. Not ghettos in the sense that an ethnic or cultural group lives there, but ghettos formed from areas of the worst available social housing – the sort of housing that no one wants to live in, with the people occupying them being those whom no one would want as a neighbour; people who have criminal, behavioural, addictive and psychological problems. Such people are moved into these areas of low quality social housing on the basis that no one else wants to live there and these groups can be more easily put there than any others since they have little or no choice or indeed the means by which to object. This naturally means that “problem people” are concentrated into small areas, which then have rampant unemployment and high levels of crime and poor social behaviour. This perhaps makes life easier for police in that they don’t have to cover the rest of the town so much since most calls are going to be to the ghettos, but for those located alongside the ghettos, this makes life difficult. Meanwhile, the rest of the town, the more prosperous areas, are largely problem free by this mechanism. It has been suggested that this mechanism now be abandoned – that “problem people” are to be dispersed across the social housing estates of the town, and also into private rental accommodation (paid by social benefits) within private housing estates. The idea seems to be, to get rid of the ghettos and by putting “problem people” into the general community, to provide inspiration for them to improve their lot. I say this is rubbish. We cannot fix broken lives simply by moving people about, and we certainly cannot expect anyone in the position of these “problem people” to somehow improve their lot unless they have both the will to do so and the opportunity by way of jobs in some cases and by way of facilities in others. The problem of course is that by their very nature, “problem people” are not attractive employees – that is, if there were suitable and sufficiently paid work available for them. Many have no energy or ability, given their problems, to seek work. And the facilities required to get them into a better position generally are absent for want of funding, and have been for some time – which is why we have so many “problem people” and the ghettos in the first place. I am informed that my reaction to the proposals are negativity personified – naturally I view my reaction as one on realism. I would love to see those at the bottom get a better life, but the solutions presented are not sufficient. What do others think? E

Termyn8or -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 9:04:40 AM)
The way you describe the ghetto sounds pretty close to a jail. I guess there are similarities, not the least of which is that people can't get out. Chris Rock said it pretty well, life is catching up to jail. If you live in old projects a nice new jail starts to look pretty good. He also humorously scoffed at the notion that drugs are destroying the ghetto. What did people have boats and swimming pools and crack came along and dried it all up ? Just face the fact that these people were screwed up before drugs ever came into their life. The fact that drugs became a problem indicates just that. In spades. Almost everyone has tried drugs, yet many do not fall into the trap. Perhaps in time we will find out what makes the difference. As usual I think I have a clue, so putting it out there as usual is going to result in some people cheering and others jeering. First of all we start raising kids on sweets. They get addicted to that, after all they were not yet taught how to avoid that pitfall. People reward their kids with snacks and bullshit like that, something that I do not even recommend in the case of training a dog. Then we provide them with distractions to the point there is no time for independent thought. Video games, TV and basically wasted time, which I might add is the most important time in their lives. Then they are stuck in daycare centers where they socialize with others who are also socially handicapped. Kids need to be around adults to learn, they do not learn much from each other. That's why I am against schools. Kids need to be around intelligent discussions and such to learn. So we wind up with these social misfits and wonder what went wrong. Then we have to warehouse them one way or another. I am also against Christmas and birthday gifts, it teaches them to be materialistic. It took me forty years to pull the wool off of my eyes and see things how they really are, and I consider myself to have had an exceptional upbringing except for a few matters. And compared to what is going on today, is was a truly exceptional upbringing. Thing is, why did it take me so long to open my eyes ? I see it in myself, now that I am mature enough to raise kids it is too late. I read somewhere "How come ve get olt so fast and schmardt so slow ?". Indeed the question if I ever saw one. I have to admit that social pressures cause some of this. In many families both Parents must work, and that is in the case of a two Parent home, which is becoming a rarity. So the kids wind up in daycare, and if someone would be so kind as to describe the differences between that and jail I am all ears. Or a ghetto for that matter. I really don't know if mingling social misfits with others is the way to solve this. Indeed it could help but for one, some are too far gone to get any benefits. Move one in down the street from me and their behavior might land them in jail around here, whereas in the real ghetto it would be acceptable. When we were looking for a house I scoffed at this place and the olman said "No,look at the address". Then I realized that is was south of the area in which I did not want to live, way south. Maybe this is a ghetto in a way, but most of the people here do not have the ghetto mentality, if there is such a thing. I would be tempted to say that ghetto mentality is a lack of mentality, but I can't really say that. Some have made their way out. Via education and getting a good job they move out. But there must have been positive influences when that happens. From where I do not know. Thing is, I don't see much hope for this being changed anytime soon. Even when it is possible, it probably won't happen. Even the affluent have their own agenda, things to do, appointments to keep. I know such people. Sure their kids are alright, but what could they be with the proper influence ? The waste of human potential in this world is abhorrent to me. People think you just have kids and they raise themselves. Well the result is ghettos and jails, and the two are getting a bit hard to tell apart. If I had a kid (and I know who that would be with) when she works I would take off. I don't care, there is something involved worth alot more than money. No kid of mine is going to daycare, and I'll reserve judgement on school for some other time. I'm thinking they would be home schooled until about the ninth grade, at that point I would have trouble keeping up. But prepared ? Yes, at least a grade ahead and skilled in martial arts. They'll be able to hang on to their lunch money to say the least. I don't know how the schools are there, but here they are close to a jail. There are bullies and all kinds of jerks. And in the classroom is one thing, but once you walk out the door there are predators. Think not ? What's the weather like on Mars ? It's a sad shame, really. And there is no easy way out. You can't undo some things. Although sometimes people with a bad background do turn themselves around, and these are valuable people because they can tell others how to do it, but most do not. Thus the warehouse. Name it what you want, but it is the same thing. T

LadyEllen -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 9:11:03 AM)
T - thanks for the reply; what was interesting was that you said that the ghetto is like jail without the guards - which is exactly the phrase being used in this local proposal E

popeye1250 -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 9:27:44 AM)
LadyE, what do I think? I think your observation is correct. "Moving" people around like that only moves the problem around. If the government wanted to put them in very wealthy areas then you'd hear a big stink in Parliment! Please explain what "public/ private "estates", "councils" are.

Politesub53 -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 10:13:11 AM)
Popeye, public housing estates are what you would call projects. Private housing estates are usually owner occupied. Lady E, i can see where you are comming from, but surely keeping all the problem familes in spot doesnt help them escape their enviroment. Thatcher was a bitch for setting up care in the community, it sounded a good idea but fails to provide the support that mental hospitals did. Many of the people you speak of obviosuly need more help than they are getting. As for the housing being paid for from social benefits, surely thats a good thing if it improves the situation ?

MissMorrigan -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 10:35:47 AM)
Lady E, there are other factors to be taken into consideration. For the duration of a previous employment, my 'patch' was Roehampton. On the one hand, there's the prosperous side, the affluent areas which see rollers/bentleys/mercs outside flats (apartments for our American friends). A neighbour of Roehampton/Richmond is Wimbledon, the closer to Wimbledon Common, the higher the property scale. On the other hand, there are those contrasting areas... the ghettos. One ghetto is the Danebury Avenue area, otherwise known as 'suicide alley', home to high rise flats and where the local hospital, Queen Mary's, has a psychiatric unit - this is the area I worked. The council, in its infinite wisdom, provides social housing to drug/substance abusers, alcoholics, people with serious psychiatric issues in the one area so that they are fairly close to the hospital. The Danebury Avenue area is home to two pharmacies, where people line up for their prescriptive medications - usually methadone, on a daily basis, and the line is long. The police are strangers to this area, it's not surprising given the number of assaults. It's fine stating that people have to want to improve their lives, how are these people able to do so when the majority aren't employable due to their profound psychiatric/alcoholic/drug issues, and are seemingly happy with 'their lot'. Of course they aren't happy as such, they're content... b/c they know no other way of life - they live day by day, they let tomorrow take care of itself. I cannot go into specifics due to the nature of my previous employment as I am bound by confidentiality, however, I can say that if you turned up and offered wonderful opportunities that would provide a greater quality of life they would firstly ask you how much extra they are getting each week, and upon that not being forthcoming, an assault is likely the result. I am sure we would all like to see more opportunities and a greater increase to quality of life, sometimes that is not possible - when people are 'encouraged' to live a certain way and by encouragement, I mean insofar as councils housing a great number of dysfunctional persons in the one area (that isn't to say that all social housing operates in the same way, I know of some lovely council housing estates where the people are proud of their homes and are decent members of the community... but they are in the minority, so I would have to disagree with you and think that we need to go back to basics.

DomAviator -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 11:45:27 AM)
Its a terrible idea! Thats how we got such a problem in Houston with all the Katrina refugees. They tried to disperse them through communities and that didnt work. They F'ed up everything they came in contact with eventually we got them herded back to jail and into a few communities too heavily damaged by them to be salvageable. Dispersing the ghettos into the nicer areas is like turning the animals in the zoo loose. You dont release a leopard into a herd of domestic cats and likewise you dont put some knife weilding drug dealing little junior thug into a school district full of innocent little middle class children not use to fighting for survival.

MissMorrigan -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 12:15:11 PM)
Bah, what utter rot, DA. Tell a person enough times they aren't good enough and they'll come to believe it. It's b/c we have those closed off social housing areas that we have such problems - take a look at Thamesmead, SE London for instance (run a search), encourage them to integrate and live among the rest of the community, maintain their dignity and up the minimum wage, ensure benefits are given to those that NEED it and can prove they are taking steps to further education if they are unable to find employment and perhaps we may have a better opportunity of managing such social malaise. All the while you cosset the idea that it's an 'us' and 'them' situation, you're going to perpetuate such dysfunction. They are PEOPLE, someone's mother, father, sister, brother, aunt and uncle - not animals.

seeksfemslave -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 12:56:11 PM)
MsM complains that telling people they are not good enough has negative consequences for the recipients of that message. The problem is MsM that "they" only get told that after they have spent their short life stealing, being violent and generally leaveing a trail of mayhem and suffering in their wake. In these cases I think the message is true. Why dont you ?

LadyEllen -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 1:02:30 PM)
The point is Seeks - it would be better for all of us if broken lives could be put back together; but how do we do that, unless the broken people want to fix themselves? And how do we help them fix themselves, if we are to have an economy with no place for them and no services to help them overcome their problems? E

pahunkboy -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 1:17:14 PM)
That is a fear. A fear that where I live will become a ghetto. When I was out riding my bike today I seen a block that looked junky. Chicago has a few areas that the ghetto was moved, torn down to build la te da condos. Being the location was actually pretty good. It was nice to not worry about ghetto type problems. [The 20 years I have lived here.] Things change tho. Based on the way USA operates these days, no area is immune. Oddly- gated communities are rare in IL and PA. FL and CA have some.... with a gate, are "they" locked out, or are you locked in?

MissMorrigan -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 1:34:14 PM)
Seeks, your observation is myopic at best and indicative of someone whose snobbery has been fashioned by years of striving for that upper middle class lifestyle that continues to elude you [;)] I have a background in social services, I had worked for years among the community and yes, I have seen elements of criminality, however, the majority of people that were/are socially disadvantaged do not steal, have never shown violence towards another, nor leeched the system. Thatcher created a great divide, and when you have a prize that so few have an opportunity of attaining, few are going to aspire to those levels, so they stick to their level of comfort - it's better the devil you know. Keep the snobbery in check, Seeks, I'll take you around some nice little housing estates where the people are decent and old ladies will enjoy making you a cuppa, and you can discuss with them why there is a history of social housing among their families, with future generations knowing they will never get a foothold on the property ladder. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The problem is MsM that "they" only get told that after they have spent their short life stealing, being violent and generally leaveing a trail of mayhem and suffering in their wake. In these cases I think the message is true. Why dont you ?

MercTech -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 1:45:30 PM)
Ok the history wonk braincell kicked in.. Ghetto.... the origin was an enclave granted separate legal standing where Seder Law held force instead of Secular Law. The pop press in the 60s got it wrong when they started talking about "black ghettos" when they really mean "poor slumlord neglected neighborhoods". Stefan

Politesub53 -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 2:03:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Thatcher created a great divide, and when you have a prize that so few have an opportunity of attaining, few are going to aspire to those levels, so they stick to their level of comfort - it's better the devil you know. Keep the snobbery in check, Seeks, I'll take you around some nice little housing estates where the people are decent and old ladies will enjoy making you a cuppa, and you can discuss with them why there is a history of social housing among their families, with future generations knowing they will never get a foothold on the property ladder. Two points here Ma`am, poor people were about long before Thatcher. Remember the saying " Best hung for a sheep than a lamb ? " Secondly, you cant scold her for selling off housing, and also say she created a divide where some people wont be able to get on the property ladder. i called her a bitch earlier so i dont admire her carte blanche.

MissMorrigan -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 2:21:18 PM)
Politesub, to the first point - that is evident and without argument, to the latter, however, Thatcher financially crippled a great many people, people that were already financially disadvantaged.

kiwisub12 -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 3:05:16 PM)
In the States we have welfare families where people breed to live on the welfare check - and it isn't all that much. The problem isn't so much rampent crime, but a generation of men and women who know of no other way of living, so the cyle is perpetuated. They see no advantage to eduacation because they see no-one getting ahead because of education. In an ideal world spreading them out into the general community would be a good thing because they could see postitive consequences - college degree= money. In the real world, it doesn't work this way - the kids at school tend to hang out in similar socio-economic groups, so don't see the connection. They want what the others have, but don't want to do the work to attain it - and to be honest, it would be very hard for them to do so. But i do know people that have come from that environment, got a bit of education, and their kids are set to get more. There is an element of upward mobility there. I don't know what inspired them to strive for more, but would be willing to bet that it was a personal contact - a teacher, or bus driver, or librarian, or just someone who was nice to them, and made them think that there could be more to life than spitting out babies, and taking checks. Like Jesus said - there will always be poor - but what needs to happen is for the "poor" to see that their lot isn't carved in stone, that it can get better, if not for them , then their kids.

seeksfemslave -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 3:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Seeks, your observation is myopic at best and indicative of someone whose snobbery has been fashioned by years of striving for that upper middle class lifestyle that continues to elude you [;)] MsM Can you explain how you conclude that I am a snob simply because I recognise that 50 odd years of welfare lunacy has allowed free reign to a dangerous, feral, ignorant, vicious out of control under class.? I know as well as you do that not all poor people fall into that category but a significant number of in particular young men do. I do not aspire to being upper middle class but I am myopic.[8\|]

Politesub53 -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 4:26:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Politesub, to the first point - that is evident and without argument, to the latter, however, Thatcher financially crippled a great many people, people that were already financially disadvantaged. So whats different about the current, or previous set ups ?

RealityLicks -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 5:22:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 ... you cant scold her(Thatcher) for selling off housing, and also say she created a divide where some people wont be able to get on the property ladder. i called her a bitch earlier so i dont admire her carte blanche. You don't mind me responding to this pS53 - you'll be aware of the special regard I have for Maggie. [:'(] It's commonly touted, this entree to the delights of home ownership that Thatch enabled but she really only handed our problems down to the next generation.. It's true that the widening of the market for sellers created by those selling their ex-council homes fostered a boom but the real source of all today's apparent wealth is of course credit. It was easy to disguise it while American profligacy made credit so cheap and while the Chinese exported their deflation but the truth is, in real terms the average person has actually seen their income stagnate over the last year 20 years - that's why its so hard for new buyers to own a home. Thatcher excited the market and made a fortune for her backers in the banks but she also separated low-to-middle income families from a vital resource - social housing at steady, low prices - the key popular issue behind immigration fears. It strikes me as negligent, if not fraudulent, to create a housing boom while simultaneously closing the door on the next generation AND locking them into low wage growth. And we even have the nerve to ridicule the celebrity culture which is all that lulls them from tearing the place down around our ears. [8\|]

MissMorrigan -> RE: in the ghetto........ (5/14/2008 11:19:40 PM)
Thatcher auctioned off public assets so that the rich could get tax cuts prior to re=election... so much for a socialist society, she tried (and succeeded) in crippling this country by stripping those secured in national jobs of their positions, creating an even larger divide, by ensuring those at the 'bottom' were well and truly kept there. Those with meagre incomes were forced to take out loans they had no hope of repaying, homes were repossessed on a grand scale, life became one HP merry-go-round for generations. As for my snobbery comment, that was tongue-in-cheek. You mentioned a feral 'under class', I do not see that as an under class as such, but something symptomatic of the erosion of the familial nucleus - something else we have to partly thank the conservatives for.

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