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National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:10:36 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Those of you all who favor universal healthcare and adopt the European model might want to do some research...

In Britain, a woman was rejected for heart surgery not by insurance companies....but by the government. And you will be surprised to learn the reason why....they say she is "too old" at age 61 and that the operation is not necessary. She has a irregular heartbeat and at risk for stroke. Her doctors and specialists all recommend the procedure to be done. But NHS refuses to pay the 5,000 british pounds for the procedure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=521772&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Instead of the insurance companies refusing to pay for your healthcare costs....the government will start rejecting you for the same reason. There is no difference.

Universal healthcare will put the health system on the government's back and lead to more national debt. Quality of care will decline. Hospitals will be flooded. And good doctors will leave the profession or go into private practice as their salaries decline. But I guess this is the CHANGE everyone wants.
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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:14:23 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Why is this in the papers over there? Do routine occurences generally get in the paper in Britain? I think its likely that this is unusual and is why it made the paper. Compare that to the US where its so common place it only makes the news when a fund raiser is unusual enough to draw attention or the person affected is known to a reporter.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:20:15 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Heres an idea - if people want Healthcare... They can pay for it. Just like I pay for it, and for a house, and for food, and for cars, and insurance, clothes, etc... I dont know where the hell this silly idea people are "entitled" to anything comes from. I mean lets be real here - if healthcare is a "right" then so is food, shelter, clothing, transportation, etc so why should anyone work? The govt can just give everyone a place to live, clothes to wear, food to eat, medicine to take etc... Oh wait, thats right we already have people who believe that - they are called "Democrats". How about a little self reliance? 

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:26:14 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		People want a nanny state. They want to be taken care of and have their hand held throughout life.

And yes this kind of thing will be common place with universal healthcare in the US. We got a much larger population than Britain. Every problem they have will be 10 fold on us. Hell....we dont even know how many people we have in this country since no one wants to close the border. If we have an open border with universal healthcare, we are going to have every sick person in central America jumping across the border to checkin to one of our hospitals. And who will pay for that healthcare? Taxpayers.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 5/13/2008 12:27:08 PM >

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:32:23 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		What about folks who can't get it...take for example John McCain. He's too old, has pre-existing conditions. He wouldn't be able to buy it at any cost. Lucky for him we're paying for his health care coverage.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:35:03 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		Taxpayers are already paying for it cyberdude.  Who do you think absorbs the costs when a person doesn't pay a hospital bill?  I am not for complete universal healthcare, but we need some major changes in our current way of doing things.  There are a lot of people that work and do everything they are supposed to do but still can't afford health insurance.  It differs from state to state, but you can't get Medicaid in this state unless you are a double amputee!  I am only slightly joking on that.  Kids can get it of course.  But if some poor bastard loses his job, then gets stuck with a bunch of hospital bills....he's fucked.  Add on to that, they won't let them include hospital bills on most bankruptcy proceedings anymore. 

People without decent healthcare and with mounting bills they will never be able to pay off is not good for society.  It's not good for the economy, and it's going to get worse if it isn't fixed. 

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:35:22 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Medicare and social security will both be bankrupt by 2040 thanks to the baby boomers and mismanagement by the federal government.

So if you are under age 40....start saving money....

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:35:30 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		My uncle in Spain (socialized healthcare) was rejected for stomach cancer surgery because the odds were not in his favor.  He sold his business and went to a private hospital and paid everything he owned for his surgery, which gave him four more years on this earth.  I am grateful for his extra time, as it gave me the opportunity to visit him and say goodbye.

I just returned from a trip to Canada.  My friend's family lives there and her aunt was rejected for care because of the "odds."  I loved my visit there - to British Columbia - but was aghast at the prices.  While there, my friend became sick and went to a walk-in clinic.  For about $45 she was seen and medicated.  But everything seemed taxed, and her family states their income tax is at 50%.  Nothing is free, after all, and rationed medicine is not something I am in favor of.

I believe everyone should have adequate health care, but it comes with a heavy price, for sure.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:54:10 PM   
LostLittleSoul2


Posts: 25
Joined: 3/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Those of you all who favor universal healthcare and adopt the European model might want to do some research...


WHY??? do you state it as "the European model???" That almost sounds as if it would be like that in general in europe???

Also I do live in uk temporarily and have my own, not that great view about the healthcare system here, I was bred and raised up in germany where we don't have this form of "european model." Because there we received marvellous healthcare, pay a little bit more from our wages to add to it but I personally never read any such headlines over there. Even here in uk was stated a few months ago in a newsprogram that MRSA in germany practically doesnt exist in hospitals (due to different procedures about hygiene standards) so also it was kind of universal healthcare in germany, the difference, as far as I know, was that we contribute there a little bit more to it from our wages and therefore have a better service, whilst here is none or not much contribution and therefore less service.

So I think the model itself is good, the question is in my view that it simply could be much better if every person would add a little bit more to it from the wages, though I do see on the other hand the difficulties to that when I experience the horrendous daily living costs here even without really spending money and admit this would be a problem for many people here.

Also recently a french actress stated in one paper something like "yes I do pay a bit more tax in france, but at least our hospitals don't kill us, our trains are on time and the children are able to go to decent schools, therefore I am happy to pay a bit more tax." So I don't think that the system is correct to be named as "european model" and more likely the british model, as it is handled on a better level in other parts of europe.

Personally I appreciate to have luck at the moment to have good doctors here since I moved as my previous one was too stupid to recognise my fibromyalgia and put my pain down on my little extra weight...even when it didnt make sense when even my upper arms are in pain sometimes....but that would be the topic then about qualifications in this country, where I better dont start at all to go into it...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:59:25 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		In the United Kingdom health care is entirely funded out of taxes. Does it make the system perfect? No. But if I fell ill and was completely broke, I'd rather be in the United Kingdom (or France, for that matter) than in America where it's... dog eats dog. I gave birth to my son in a leading teaching hospital in London... for free. All the care... was free. All the post-care... was free. I didn't even have to wait to be reimbursed. I think all in all, it's a pretty good system.

At least, a portion of income tax goes towards something tangibly good for the population.

I won't even bother describe the French system: it'll make the American folks sick with jealousy  .

Universal healthcare is already paid for in America: that's what your taxes should be for, instead of funding war and other nonsense. It's baffling that so many are clamouring for the right to pay extra money on top of that so that they can fund fatcat insurance companies. Too weird...

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 12:59:32 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Those of you all who favor universal healthcare and adopt the European model might want to do some research...

In Britain, a woman was rejected for heart surgery not by insurance companies....but by the government. And you will be surprised to learn the reason why....they say she is "too old" at age 61 and that the operation is not necessary. She has a irregular heartbeat and at risk for stroke. Her doctors and specialists all recommend the procedure to be done. But NHS refuses to pay the 5,000 british pounds for the procedure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=521772&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Instead of the insurance companies refusing to pay for your healthcare costs....the government will start rejecting you for the same reason. There is no difference.

Universal healthcare will put the health system on the government's back and lead to more national debt. Quality of care will decline. Hospitals will be flooded. And good doctors will leave the profession or go into private practice as their salaries decline. But I guess this is the CHANGE everyone wants.


You should look behind the headlines cyberdude, all is not what it seems.

1. It is no surprise this article is in the Daily Mail which is a rightwing paper bordering on the extreme and hates universal healthcare.

2. Her procedure was not rejected by the government, the government has no say, the decision was made by her local health trust which is legally bound to make decisions based on clinical need.

3. She is free to take her health trust to court if she thinks she is being unfairly treated and the chances are she would get legal aid, paid for, you guessed it, the government or tax payer, depending on which suits your politics.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 1:03:50 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Hang on a minute you cite her age as being the sole reason she was refused.
The article says - 
 
quote:

The North Yorkshire and York Primary Care Trust is said to have cited her age as one of the reasons for refusal.


We do not know the other reasons which were taken into consideration.

Also you neglect to add -

quote:

"We have reviewed the case in the light of the additional clinical information and national guidance and, as Mrs Simpson fits the clinical criteria, we have agreed funding for her treatment."


So she is going to recieve the treatment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Heres an idea - if people want Healthcare... They can pay for it.


Everyone pays for their health care in some shape or form (immigrants discluded but thats another argument.) USA has private medical insurance, UK has taxes to cover it or private medical insurance.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 1:03:59 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

My uncle in Spain (socialized healthcare) was rejected for stomach cancer surgery because the odds were not in his favor.  He sold his business and went to a private hospital and paid everything he owned for his surgery, which gave him four more years on this earth.  I am grateful for his extra time, as it gave me the opportunity to visit him and say goodbye.

I just returned from a trip to Canada.  My friend's family lives there and her aunt was rejected for care because of the "odds."  I loved my visit there - to British Columbia - but was aghast at the prices.  While there, my friend became sick and went to a walk-in clinic.  For about $45 she was seen and medicated.  But everything seemed taxed, and her family states their income tax is at 50%.  Nothing is free, after all, and rationed medicine is not something I am in favor of.

I believe everyone should have adequate health care, but it comes with a heavy price, for sure.

So how do you propose paying for unrationed health care? My premiums are well over $100 a month and my insurance simply refuses to pay for surgery to fix my knee since it is service related and the VA should pay for it. Except that the VA won't pay for it. They will do the surgery when I get to the top of the waiting list which is the same list all the Iraq vets who need orthopaedic surgery post amputation are on. Except they get priority, which I fully support, which means that I'm actually farther away from getting my surgery than I was in 2004 when I first got on the list.

To pay for it myself the ortho surgery + rehab etc. will cost upwards of $80k according to the ortho surgeon my HMO sent me to see which is roughly a years take home pay for me.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 1:21:10 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
So she is going to recieve the treatment.


!!!Warning!!!

A person with a high level of reading comprehension.

!!!Warning!!!



Must be all the training via thousands of pages of De Sade.

Anyway, I'm glad we settled that one.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 1:42:09 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		'You making fun of me Rizz?'
(grease)
Sorry always wanted to say that for some reason, and now i have and my lifetime ambition is fulfilled.
 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 2:45:00 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		ill be dead at 61 so i wont care about it.  in fact i dont plan to live past 50.
instead i will use the last 13 yrs of my life to hit on all the hot girls here on CM.

wait..i already do that...


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I did not reply to your cmail.
I am flawed.
Imperfect.
MUST SPANK!!!
SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 2:49:52 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
'You making fun of me Rizz?'


Some people are so touchy.

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 2:54:00 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		There are such things as progress in technology (a very much improved artificial heart) and biotechnology (adding or growing a secondary supporting heart). You are likely too die early - but you might outlive most of us. A lot can happen in say twelve years time.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/13/2008 2:55:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 3:17:40 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So how do you propose paying for unrationed health care? My premiums are well over $100 a month and my insurance simply refuses to pay for surgery to fix my knee since it is service related and the VA should pay for it. Except that the VA won't pay for it. They will do the surgery when I get to the top of the waiting list which is the same list all the Iraq vets who need orthopaedic surgery post amputation are on. Except they get priority, which I fully support, which means that I'm actually farther away from getting my surgery than I was in 2004 when I first got on the list.

To pay for it myself the ortho surgery + rehab etc. will cost upwards of $80k according to the ortho surgeon my HMO sent me to see which is roughly a years take home pay for me.


I honestly do not know how to fund unrationed healthcare, which is why I am not a fan of universal healthcare - because I don't know if there is a way to do it without rationing it.  It's a seriously complex issue, to be sure.  Your situation is a truly unfortunate one, but do you think if we had universal health care you wouldn't also be placed on a waiting list?

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: National healthcare wont pay for everything - 5/13/2008 3:18:54 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
'You making fun of me Rizz?'


Some people are so touchy.



  Thanks for the chuckle, you two.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

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Profile   Post #: 20
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