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Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:15:52 AM

dignified

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline

Hi I joined collar me a few days ago after giving it quite a lot of thought. I know little or nothing about D/s as a lifestyle and even less about bdsm. I am fascinated by the thought of slavery. Not just the consensual kind as practised by the kind of people who frequent sites like collar me, but also the reality of slavery as it is practiced in countries like China and India where forced labour is not uncommon and some human life is seen as less valuable than an ox or cow. I wonder if there can be any dignity in slavery. Or whether by entering into slavery whether willingly or by force you automatically give up any right you might have had to expect any dignity or respect. I read profiles on here from some sub’s that are absolutely mind boggling, and wonder if they realise that in most cases they are just allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by a predatory mail. And can someone explain why all sub females are bi sexual. I have never seen one advert by a couple for an eighteen year old male to service Masters slave while he watches. It does all seem rather one sided to me. Anyway I do have more questions I would like to ask before I decide whether to commit myself to any kind of D/s relationship. So please any views or opinions would be very gratefully received.

Post #: 1

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:29:25 AM

MladyHathor

Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

IMHO you use by force and willingly in the same sentence----by force--no--willingly I'd say there was some negotiation that took place and by accepting the position, you had to feel there was going to be dignity.

_____________________________

The Mistress Hathor, always and forever, much to the disdain and discomfort of others.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 2

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:30:29 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

For me, there can be no relationship without dignity and respect. Submission from a place of joy rather than from a place of desperation, fear, loneliness, lack of self esteem or feelings of inadequacy.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 5/6/2008 6:44:44 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 3

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:38:47 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

Dear dignified:

I have family in China, and many friends from India. You don't know jack about those countries.

According to many human rights organizations, there is more forced labor in the United States than in any other single country. Labor is forced in the US prison system, which houses more inmates than any other country in the history of the world.

I don't want to turn this into a political thread. My point, however, is that you are seeing the world through the eyes of your fetish, instead of being a kinky human who lives in the real world. As you gain experience, you will get better at separating fantasy from reality.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 4

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:39:37 AM

OmegaG

Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

Dignity can be choosing the path that is best for you regardless of social pressure for conformity, it can also be the way you handle events in your life that are unforseen and perhaps unpleasent.

So a consentual slave can most definately be dignified if it's the path she's chosen with an open mind. So far as she's allowing a predatory mail (I assume you meant male) to take advantage of her-- I think that is just Western doublestandardism seeping into your paradigm. If it's what she enjoys is she really being taken advantage of? Or has she found a partner that she can by symbiotic with?

Nonconsentual slavery is abhorent and one should never condone those who take others against their will, period. With that said, dignity can be achieved by a person who find themselves in a stiuation that is against their will by maintainint their grace and sense of self.

IMO, dignity is something that a human can control despite the circumstances that surround them. It is a state of being and it is an emotion. I can choose to be dignified when dealing with unpleasentness or I can act in an undignified manner, either way I am saying more about my true charecter then I am about the situation at hand.

FWIW, I feel that you presented your question in a loaded fashion, that while your profile says that you are interested, it seems that you have a bit of contention against a life choice that others make. I hope future postings negate my original impression.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 5

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:52:51 AM

TwistedLeather

Posts: 189
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline

Some choose to give up their sense of dignity, as a form of sacrifice to the comittment and path they've chosen. To each their own. Personally, i'm not into being humiliated, degredated, or objectified. But there are others out there who thrive in that kind of atmosphere and relationship. It would seem to me that you still have much to learn in finding where you personally fit in this lifestyle. Everyone has their own definitions and preferences. Some believe it should all be one way, others border the line between D/s and BDSM and the "vanilla" world. Try and get all points of views, and learn from them, whether you agree with them or not. You can learn something from even what feels wrong to *you*

As for us being bi-sexual... who says? i'm as straight as they come! It's true that some people believe that by being a submissive or a slave, they give up their choice of sexuality, but that's not true for everyone. i believe it's a matter of nature, and mine says... um, no thanks. To put it lightly!

_____________________________

Wishing you lots of whacks and giggles!

www.americantwistedleather.com

(in reply to OmegaG)

Post #: 6

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 6:53:01 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

You are making two common mistake of making judgments based on seeing something through your own eyes instead of trying to understand something through the other person’s eyes and thinking a power exchange relationship and the people in it are vastly different then the average person and relationship.

What you might see of a lack of dignity and respect can often be very much dignity and respect as the people are living in agreed upon dynamic and the slave WANTS and NEEDS to be treated in that way. That they in fact do not want anything near a regular type relationship and that we have chosen the person we serve and do not do this just for anyone.

Most people in this life have love and respect in their relationships just like people in regular type relationships. Just like regular world there will be people and couples that are mentally damaged and dysfunctional as well. People are not different just the dynamic.

While I am not a fan of China in general, being Asian and considered Chinese by China itself not by us (Taiwanese), I have traveled extensively in China in my life as well as other Asian countries to be quite offended at your ignorance of life and Asian people. I am not ignorant to think that questionable labor practices exist in places like China because they certainly will be but they appear in most if not all nations. But thinking some human life is considered less then an ox is just simply offensive gibberish.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 7

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 7:14:20 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Trust me, all female submissives are not bisexual. Just because a lot of couples profiles say they are looking for that, doesn't mean they'll find it. Nor does it mean that the female sub part of the couple is turned on by other women. Sometimes it just means she's willing to go through the motions because the male gets turned on by lesbian porn.

As far as slavery in the third world, I see no dignity nor human rights in what is a clear cut violation of human rights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Sudan

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/6/2008 7:15:44 AM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 8

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 8:38:40 AM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
Status: offline

A true slave never gives up anything by choice. They have no choice. Anything someone gives up voluntarily and based on their own wants, without compulsion, connotes freedom and dignity. And which they retain at all times.

Your analogy doesn't really apply. If that's your only problem, don't worry about it.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 9

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 9:20:27 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

An M/s relationship is a mutual one IMO. Many dynamics are different in these relationships. I entered into this relationship voluntarily and what my rights would be were discussed and negotiated in the beginning. I have dignity in being what I want to be and doing what pleases me. Master gets what he wants and I get my needs fulfilled by doing this. My Master cares for me, loves me and always respects me as I respect him. I like this short video that gives one view on their M/s relationship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Q06rGTs_M

< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 5/6/2008 9:35:22 AM >

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 10

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 9:32:30 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I have met and known more than a few subs who choose the path out of a place of desperation, lonliness and a lack of self esteem. I guess it is the way they chose to deal with their life in the most dignified manner they can see. Not the best solution in my opinion, but I have seen it too many times.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

For me, there can be no relationship without dignity and respect. Submission from a place of joy rather than from a place of desperation, fear, loneliness, lack of self esteem or feelings of inadequacy.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 11

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 9:39:19 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Let me speak a bit about your question in the ancient worlds of Greek poleis and Rome. In those societies, slavery was legal and fairly wide spread. Legally speaking slaves did not have dignity but from rare references in some literature it seems that individual slaves and slave owners could see the slave as full human being worthy of respect through their actions and skills. However these seem to be very rare so while the fantasy is hot and I encourage everyone to feed their fantasies, I can't say the reality would be very nice or healthy.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 12

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 10:04:24 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

As with many things in the BDSM lifestlye, there is room for a lot of interpretation. There is no firm definition for slave, for instance, but it is up to lifestyle partners to come up with their own definition for their particular relationship. Slavery can, but does not need to, include not just phyiscal actions but the turning over of power in such areas as finance, property, etc.

I am a slave in my relationship. In my Master's eyes this gives me less right to question what he wants than if I was his sub. For instance, I am not bisexual, but if he tells me to find a willing sub for a threesome that becomes my job. He believes that a slave is more dedicated than a sub, and so more is expected of her. In return I have the knowledge that I am also his special pet. Along with having more responsibilities I also get more perks, including his adoration. I get benefits that his other subs don't, such as long kisses and the right to ask for lap time whenever I want it.

I chose to move from the position of sub to slave. I can't say that there were no surprises in store for me, but I can wholeheartedly say that there have been more good surprises than ones that I was uncomfortable with. Some Dom/mes (and fewer subs) feel that a slave has no right to think on their own. That's pretty much impossible. A slave is not one who does not think or feel, or who gets no rewards from what they are doing. They are people who have chosen to turn their power over to someone special and allow themselves to be used for that person's pleasure. In a healthy relationship they are paid back with pleasure of their own. (Again, this can also be applied to subs. That's part of why it is so difficult to have an exact definition of the difference between a sub and a slave.)

Each Dom/me will have slightly different criteria for what they feel that a slave is and what that slave should do. Sometimes it is based on the personality of that slave and what they are capable of. While a person might enjoy being a slave for one they might totally dislike the criteria of another. With the right blend of personalities and expectations it can be a glorious thing. It is certainly nothing like being kept in a situation where all that counts is the will of the more dominant persona with no rights as history has given us many examples of. If a BDSM slave ever found themselves in a position like that then they could simply end the relationship.

Yes, some people do end up being taken advantage of. (Some people are actually happier that way, suffering from a martyr syndrome.) I know that it is not that way at all in my case. This is the healthiest and happiest relationship I have ever been in, and my Master feels the same. In fact, he just told me last night that his happiness increases tenfold knowing that I am content in my place as his slave, doing the things that I do willingly.

_____________________________

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 13

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 10:16:19 AM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified

I wonder if there can be any dignity in slavery. Or whether by entering into slavery whether willingly or by force you automatically give up any right you might have had to expect any dignity or respect.

That's entirely up to you and what you're looking for. Whatever it is, I am positive there is someone out there who is willing to fulfill it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified
I read profiles on here from some sub’s that are absolutely mind boggling, and wonder if they realise that in most cases they are just allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by a predatory mail.

To some, it's not being taken advantage of. To others, if they are being taken advantage of, sometimes they don't see it post hoc, for whatever reason. Perhaps it's personal dysfunction, or perhaps it's someone new who doesn't quite understand that being a sub doesn't have to equal no opinion, no choice, and no independence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified

And can someone explain why all sub females are bi sexual.

Not all are. Even those who participate in the activity aren't all bi. Sometimes it's just to hang onto her man, other times it's because she doesn't care one way or another but it pleases her Dom. Sometimes she is bi. Just like with anything else with large groups of people, one size doesn't fit all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified

I do have more questions I would like to ask before I decide whether to commit myself to any kind of D/s relationship.

Very sensible, and good for you. The most important thing is to be true to yourself and thus find a partner whose views are compatible with yours, just like in a vanilla relationship. Good luck, whatever you decide.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 14

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 10:25:45 AM

subsfaith

Posts: 297
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified
they are just allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by a predatory mail.

What exactly is 'predatory mail'?

I shall greet my postie with a cautionary gait tomorrow, fully expecting a piece of mail to devour me upon opening!

With regards to dignity in a slave, I think there are many that find great pride and dignity in commiting to the point of internal enslavement. This would be true of myself. The deeper I travel in my journey, the more I am challenged, and the more I learn about myself. There is no taking advantage of me.

To the OP, general sweeping statements are not a good idea here, people tend to get offended and inflamed; and perhaps if slavery is fascinating to you the sooner you stop concentrating on the narrow-minded negatives and find some positives, the sooner your journey will begin..... 'Methinks the lady does protest too much'.

Best wishes,
Faith

:: smiles ::

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 15

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 10:45:23 AM

daddysliloneds

Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

hmmmmmmmmmmmm, i'm a submissive and i'm not bi, so guess you must have skipped over reading my profile

, so perhaps you shouldn't assume it to be true of all submissives......

and

i believe wholeheartedly that one who is a slave whether by choice or by force, can still feel dignified and respect themselves without having to be treated that way or told that they are by others.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 16

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 11:04:48 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

BDSM, sex and D/s is all what you personally make of it or enjoy. Everybody has different interest and tastes.   If you seek to have Dignity in a D/s relationship, find a somebody who has similar views and interests.

Some people are into humilation, others are not. Some want to be treated extreme and others do not.   There is nothing set in stone about BDSM and D/s, just some general concepts to follow.

This is my advice, look around for somebody with similar mindsets and views as you have.    D/s relationships are still relationships, and it's best if you are somewhat like minded about things with your partner.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 17

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 12:00:07 PM

lizcgirl

Posts: 287
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline

I'm a slave and I still have my dignity. I submit 100% to my Master, I do what I'm told. I might not always like it, it might push me to my limits, but I made that choice when I asked to be owned by Him. He never sugar coated it or tried to convince me that it was going to be a walk in the park for me 24/7. I made an educated, conscious decision to turn my will over to Him because I trust Him. When I am told to do something that I don't want to do, I have a choice at that point. As a slave I am expected to do as I'm told, but HOW I do it is still in my control. I can stomp around like a spoiled child and make a complete fool out of myself, or I can do the task with poise and dignity and make Him proud. I keep my dignity by my actions and my conduct, not by whether or not I can say no whenever I please. I am proud to submit to Him, so even if I don't like what I am told to do, I know it makes Him happy, therefor makes me happy.

And as for all subs being bi, I am not bi. I have no interest in any relationships with other women- I certainly don't condone any one who does though. Saying every sub is bi like saying every slave is weak- you have to look at the person individually, not on a whole. The more you talk to people here, the more you'll see just how diverse they really are.

_____________________________

Never make some one a priority when all you are to them is an option.

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 18

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 12:27:00 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dignified

Hi I joined collar me a few days ago after giving it quite a lot of thought. I know little or nothing about D/s as a lifestyle and even less about bdsm. I am fascinated by the thought of slavery. Not just the consensual kind as practised by the kind of people who frequent sites like collar me, but also the reality of slavery as it is practiced in countries like China and India where forced labour is not uncommon and some human life is seen as less valuable than an ox or cow. I wonder if there can be any dignity in slavery. Or whether by entering into slavery whether willingly or by force you automatically give up any right you might have had to expect any dignity or respect. I read profiles on here from some sub’s that are absolutely mind boggling, and wonder if they realise that in most cases they are just allowing themselves to be taken advantage of by a predatory mail. And can someone explain why all sub females are bi sexual. I have never seen one advert by a couple for an eighteen year old male to service Masters slave while he watches. It does all seem rather one sided to me. Anyway I do have more questions I would like to ask before I decide whether to commit myself to any kind of D/s relationship. So please any views or opinions would be very gratefully received.

To cut to the chase, most relationships spoken of on sites like these are not talking about slavery at all, but the simulation of it. Slavery is not centered around sex, nor "BDSM". It's not about leather outfits and "subspace", strap-ons, cross-dressing, or whether someone is "bi" or not. This is not to say the flavors of psychosexual deviance found in these discussions aren't interesting or fun to practice, nor is it to say that people aren't living many varied forms of domination and submission and having very deep and meaningful relationships as a result, but most of it simply isn't slavery. It's sadomasochistic and / or sexually deviant modern romanticism.

Slavery is not about having a place of dignity, honor or respect. That is entirely up to the whim of the Keeper, and can be taken away just as easily as it's given.

< Message edited by amayos -- 5/6/2008 1:00:55 PM >

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 19

RE: Dignity in slavery - 5/6/2008 12:41:38 PM

born4serving

Posts: 61
Joined: 8/18/2007
Status: offline

I have been in this lifestyle for over 5 years now. There was a time when I was shy to talk to a Mistress on the phone, but after time I became proud that I am a slave. I am delighted to meet Mistress's in person where my position is a slave for them.

People like me know there is nothing more satisfying in life than for a Woman to take control over You. I guess there is dignity in slavery where one is under the control of someone who respects You but at the same time takes care of You for their own pleasure.

I for one am proud of being a slave, I have no regret and the day i get married to a dominant woman will be the best day of my life.

(in reply to dignified)

Post #: 20

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