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RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/7/2008 9:19:49 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

All I have ever argued is this:

If we have the money for a military presence all over the world, extravagant private interest wars like Iraq and Afghanistan, endless funds for crisis victims the world over, etc - then...

Goddamn it, I want universal healthcare. In fact, I want universal healthcare first and then we can talk about the rest of it.

Where are the peoples' priorities?



My priority in this topic is "Two wrongs don't make a right."

The problem is that healthcare is becoming unaffordable to a greater number of people over time
.
People should be asking what's causing this problem, and then eliminate the causes... not further empower the PTB, allow them to impose bigger and better band-aids to symptoms, and receive fewer and fewer options as a result.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/7/2008 10:30:39 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		I like how you come across as if they needed more power. Gee, you didn't notice that the monetary system is totally gamed and that the power to tax wages as income grants them carte blanche? They own you!

They are not giving you your money back. No way. The only question now is whether you can get value for the dollars they took. Which do you prefer: war on two fronts or universal healthcare?

What they want you to do is shut up and sit down.

Dream a different dream.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/7/2008 11:11:35 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Gotta disagree w/ Lynnxz. Well, partly. Grady is screwed. I've never been, though. I'm closer to Northside and Kennestone.

When I am elected Dicktater, I will set up an extensive system of neighborhood clinics which take care of the little things. Their primary function will be wellness education; short classes devoted to basic stuff like nutrition and self-examination in exchange for, I dunno, credits that can be used instead of the small copays. (haven't completely thought about this yet) Use Nurse-practitioners for little stuff like scrapes, bruises, simple fractures, and the like. Each one would have a doctor so that more complex problems can be seen (allergies, rhinovirii, and the like). These clinics act as triage centers; more urgent problems will be passed up the line. Patients are sent from the clinics/triage centers to specialty centers (cardio, optholmology, infectious disease, compound fractures, psychiatry, gyno, etc.) where specialists see them and diagnose. All corrective actions take place at these centers. For detached retinas, for instance, the optholmology center does all those. For cardiac, the cardio center does those. That way, each center has the supplies and equipment and specialists they need, and not stuff fo all events, like modern hospitals do now. You would get efficiencies of inventory, equipment, and treatment.

I'll think of some more stuff.

Big thing is to take the profit out of healthcare.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/7/2008 11:40:35 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		It sounds pretty much like Hillarycare: everybody is required to buy health insuarance and the government pays for the poor. The problem for US is that everybody who works in healthcare industry makes lot of money. How do you get them to work for substantially less? Hillarycare if introduced will become goldmine for health isuarance companies  as they will get large group of low risk people who do not buy health insuarance by choice. Also, Japanese are relatively honest people while in US fraud in healthcare industry is rampant. So, Hillarycare would require substantial "healtcare tax" for all citizens, it will lead to even higher cost per patient and lower percentage of healtcare dollars directed to real care. In essence: bad idea.
In my view there are only two real options:
1. universal direct government run system or
2. leaving goverment totally out and letting free competition in the industry (competition now is severely restrained)
The second option is favored as it will substantially bring price down.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 3:31:37 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe, we should deal with all of the frivolous lawsuits that are driving up the cost of malpractice insurance.   Even the many cases that are dropped, dismissed or where they are found not guilty force them to pay overpriced lawyers and overpriced insurance.  People who file lawsuits just for that cash bonanza should be find themselves with some time behind bars and fines equal to what they were trying to scam.
Then we go after the overpriced medical office renters.  Force them to rent spaces for a competitive range or even let the government rent the spaces from the old VA hospitals.  Its an idea anyway.

(in reply to awmslave)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 3:36:10 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Maybe, we should deal with all of the frivolous lawsuits that are driving up the cost of malpractice insurance.   Even the many cases that are dropped, dismissed or where they are found not guilty force them to pay overpriced lawyers and overpriced insurance.  People who file lawsuits just for that cash bonanza should be find themselves with some time behind bars and fines equal to what they were trying to scam.
Then we go after the overpriced medical office renters.  Force them to rent spaces for a competitive range or even let the government rent the spaces from the old VA hospitals.  Its an idea anyway.
What frivolous lawsuits?

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 3:41:11 AM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		a>  We need an investigation of health insurance companies owinging for profit health care systems.  Spiraling cost is only to their benefit.

b>  Bring back the PHS clinics.  Before a bill of goods was sold to the public in 1968, there were free public health service clinics where you could get basic health care.  And, the public health service went to the schools and gave the required innoculations.  But, medicaid was sold as a cost saving measure.  Now, medicaid spents many times the amount the free clinics would cost trying to deny people benefits.  BTW, the doctors on staff at the old PHS clinics were doing a "loan forgiveness" type program.  Governemnt loans for medical school would be written off in exchange for either 6 years in the military or 10 years with PHS.

Stefan

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 4:29:53 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Maybe, we should deal with all of the frivolous lawsuits that are driving up the cost of malpractice insurance.


I find this an interesting conservative talking point...

The law of torts arises from common law - the foundation of our entire legal system. Apparently, you don't care for it. I guess you would prefer roman mercantile equity - the law of merchants. In other words, the law most beneficial to business.

Listen, leave torts alone. They are good for you and me alike. It's an important part of the common law. You don't need it until you do, and then you will be damned glad to have it.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 9:28:25 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I like how you come across as if they needed more power. Gee, you didn't notice that the monetary system is totally gamed and that the power to tax wages as income grants them carte blanche? They own you!

They are not giving you your money back. No way. The only question now is whether you can get value for the dollars they took. Which do you prefer: war on two fronts or universal healthcare?

What they want you to do is shut up and sit down.

Dream a different dream.


Didn't notice that the monetary system is totally gamed? You must not have read many of my posts!

You're more concerned about what you can get out of the corrupt system, than fixing the system. That makes you part of the problem, not the solution.

Perhaps it's you who should be dreaming a different dream.


(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 12:48:16 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Well, I am a realist - we've had corrupt governments since the beginning of time. The wealthy elite are going to get theirs - first and foremost. The rest is the part that requires negotiation.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 2:16:43 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Well, I am a realist - we've had corrupt governments since the beginning of time. The wealthy elite are going to get theirs - first and foremost. The rest is the part that requires negotiation.



Are you saying that regardless of corruption, as long as you get what you perceive to be a big-enough slice of the pie, you're willing to sit down and shut up?

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 6:56:45 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro


The law of torts arises from common law - the foundation of our entire legal system. Apparently, you don't care for it. I guess you would prefer roman mercantile equity - the law of merchants. In other words, the law most beneficial to business.

Listen, leave torts alone. They are good for you and me alike. It's an important part of the common law. You don't need it until you do, and then you will be damned glad to have it.


Actually, depending on who is talking, politicians on both sides have discussed this.  Since the majority seem to be lawyers, they will never change a system that benefits them.  As for the torts benefitting all of us, I'm afraid they don't. 
Fraudulent lawsuits against medical professionals and lawsuits for things they had no control over have been filed and both should be treated as crimes.  One actually is already a crime.
Why don't we try for a legal system that favors the truth?  That is what I favor.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 8:53:34 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
Are you saying that regardless of corruption, as long as you get what you perceive to be a big-enough slice of the pie, you're willing to sit down and shut up?


Isn't there a joke about a young man who tries to cop a feel from a girl's breast, the young lady swats his hand away, so in his next move the guy grabs for her pussy instead.

Corruption is the way of the world. And I didn't say I was going to sit down and shut up, I just have realistic priorities about what's important to achieve right now - a current goal post.

Universal healthcare is doable. It needs to be done for the U.S. to become more competitive again. Leaving healthcare to employers and private citizens to shoulder the burden is killing us economically.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 8:58:50 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Why don't we try for a legal system that favors the truth?  That is what I favor.


Now you really are clutching at straws. The legal system isn't about truth or justice - it's about power, control and money.

Jeez, and I thought I was the idealist around here. Some of you would seem to want either everything on your political agendas or nothing at all. Everything or fuck it all.

Not smart.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 9:05:54 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Lol.  Why is truth so much to ask?  Because people fear it?  What the legal system is and what it needs to be are different   things.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

And I don't want everything.  I wouldn't have anywhere to put it.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 9:34:55 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		The truth has at least 360 degrees of possible points of perspective on a flat surface. In the real world you have to apply that notion to a sphere around a single point of interest. And that's just for the purpose of modelling the complexities which are actually infinite.

The truth is a lot more slippery than you would seem to think.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/8/2008 9:57:48 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Jeez, and I thought I was the idealist around here. Some of you would seem to want either everything on your political agendas or nothing at all. Everything or fuck it all.



Sugar, it's not a matter of wanting everything. Try to consider that some people feel strongly that you can't effectively attack corruption and inequity from the bottom up. You need to attack it from the top down. It's either that, or settle for whatever scraps they toss at you (while making you think you won a glorious victory after a long and hard-fought battle) as they usurp even more money and power.




(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/9/2008 5:02:33 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		And what has this attitude gotten you? The presidency of George Bush, Jr. and the most outrageous looters of all White House administrations in our history.

An amazing achievement, that...

Yeah, let's do lots more of the same thing instead of winning it back again battle by battle.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Health Care: One way to do it right... - 5/9/2008 9:37:55 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		You're playing their game, and perhaps don't realize it. 

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 39
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