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Question of trust - 5/3/2008 2:01:17 AM

Othie

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/8/2005
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This is probably something that has been talked about before, but i can't see the post, so I figured I would start a new one and pick a few minds unless someone has a link for me. What can I say, I'm on break and have to much free time on my hands.

How do you view trust? One of the lines I read the most when it comes to BDSM is "trust is earned". This makes sense, but it also makes me wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't see trust as if it were a single immutable object to be given or taken away.

Personally to me, trust is more like nesting dolls, with layers upon layers, open one layer (or share it with a friend) and there is another, smaller layer under it. For example, every day I Trust people to not hurt me, to not run over me, to not make fun of me, to show basic human thoughts and feelings. But that does not mean that I would Trust them with a childhood dream. And on top of this, I do not believe that any of these layers are immutable. Everyday we learn and we change, I believe that our layers and more importantly, what is writen on them, change as we do. If I am betrayed, it doesn't mean I take back all layers of trust, maybe just one or two, depending on the betrayal. And as I spend more time with people, I feel more comfortable giving different layers of trust to them.

What do you think of trust? Clearly it is something very important in any relationship, and that is, if anything, even more true in a BDSM relationship. But just what is trust?

Post #: 1

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 2:23:55 AM

Asherdelampyr

Posts: 9556
Joined: 11/14/2006
From: The Desert
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Othie

This is probably something that has been talked about before, but i can't see the post, so I figured I would start a new one and pick a few minds unless someone has a link for me. What can I say, I'm on break and have to much free time on my hands.

How do you view trust? One of the lines I read the most when it comes to BDSM is "trust is earned". This makes sense, but it also makes me wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't see trust as if it were a single immutable object to be given or taken away.

Personally to me, trust is more like nesting dolls, with layers upon layers, open one layer (or share it with a friend) and there is another, smaller layer under it. For example, every day I Trust people to not hurt me, to not run over me, to not make fun of me, to show basic human thoughts and feelings. But that does not mean that I would Trust them with a childhood dream. And on top of this, I do not believe that any of these layers are immutable. Everyday we learn and we change, I believe that our layers and more importantly, what is writen on them, change as we do. If I am betrayed, it doesn't mean I take back all layers of trust, maybe just one or two, depending on the betrayal. And as I spend more time with people, I feel more comfortable giving different layers of trust to them.

What do you think of trust? Clearly it is something very important in any relationship, and that is, if anything, even more true in a BDSM relationship. But just what is trust?

I agree

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The Rainmaker

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 2

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 3:41:47 AM

chamberqueen

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline

That was a great way to put it, the nesting dolls. I had posted my thoughts on another forum last night on trust, and I mentioned how I feel that trust is given in pieces. I trust someone to care for my body before my heart, for instance. My willingness to obey was there from the beginning, but the level at which I trust with my inner feelings grows over time.

I had something happen last night between my Master and me, and I realized that trust can also go the other way. He emailed something that hurt my feelings very much, and I felt trust withdraw. What He said was well within His rights to say, and I am sure that He will gain the trust back within a few days, but it reminded me of how giving trust is not always a linear process but sometimes more like rising waves. It may grow overall but sometimes takes dips.

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Post #: 3

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 4:22:05 AM

MsStarlett

Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
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Shrek called his personality an Onion... with layers. When you learn one thing, you peal back a layer to expose something that you didn't know before. With Trust, I do like the Nesting Dolls analogy. Each inner doll may be smaller, it it is far more precious. When Trust is broken, all the prior levels come slamming back down to protect the inner child.

We all have layers of trust. We walk out the door trusting that no one will attack us. We drive down the street trusting that broken yellow dotted line to keep the other cars from hitting us. We trust that fast food worker NOT to sell us a burger that fell on the floor. Those are outer layers.

We trust the people that we meet to tell us the truth. We trust our friends' opinions about our lives. We trust our lovers with our secrets. That starts moving toward the center. When you start moving into the BDSM realm, you have to trust your partner not to bind you and leave you for 20 hours. (See "Lifestyle in the News") That's some hard core, down deep trust.

_____________________________

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

(in reply to chamberqueen)

Post #: 4

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 4:23:18 AM

DominantJenny

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Joined: 4/6/2008
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Well put!

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 5

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 6:32:18 AM

krikket

Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline

I like the nesting dolls description, much better than layers of onions, truth be told, cuz onions always make me cry..lol.

When I meet someone new on line, in person, at work, in an elevator, there's always a level of trust that's given, unspoken, but still there. Now I'm not saying I'd trust them with my last dollar, or my most intimate thoughts, but that layer is still there. The more I get to know someone the more (and sometimes less) I trust them. Instinct plays a part in that, do their actions match their words, chemistry..so many different parts to that thing we call trust. There have been people I've trusted completely that I later find out didn't "earn" it, and for a long time I blamed myself for making a bad decision, but I've learned that it isn't always me -- sometimes it's them. Most of us wear a mask, some more than others, and just because I wasn't able to see past that mask doesn't make me a failure -- a little naive maybe, but I've decided I'd rather trust at first than rarely trust. It makes my life a whole lot easier and happier.

cheers,
jimini

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin

When your heart speaks take good notes.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 6

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 6:46:13 AM

awakenednj

Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline

Othie- that was beautifully said. That is exaclty how I picture trust.

and krikket i love your sig line

(in reply to krikket)

Post #: 7

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 6:59:54 AM

Bound2One

Posts: 614
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

Othie, I love your analogy of the nesting dolls. Thank you for making me smile this morning!

I start out with the basic trust (like respect) that I give everyone in my world. The rest is earned, usually based upon the actions of the person. His actions mean so much to me in a deep place, the place that allows me to turn myself over to him. His words, while usually beautiful, meaningful and touching, are more like the paint on the nesting dolls. A decorative touch, if you will, but the essential part for building trust for me are his actions. That's what earns my trust.

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 8

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 8:48:48 AM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Othie
How do you view trust? One of the lines I read the most when it comes to BDSM is "trust is earned". Personally to me, trust is more like nesting dolls, with layers upon layers...
What do you think of trust? Clearly it is something very important in any relationship, and that is, if anything, even more true in a BDSM relationship. But just what is trust?

Degree of trust - Like you, I have degrees of trust. My initial degree, my default trust level is very high compared to most people. I initially trust people with everything except my money and my life. If they do harm, then I retract trust.

Importance of trust - To me, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. It has to run both ways or neither will gain it. Trust is a key to inspiring love.

Mutual trust requires mutual exposure. Exposure is vulnerability. Vulnerability proves trust. Trust inspires love. Love makes surrender and control possible. If you are to succeed at a 100% power exchange, there is no room for secrets or privacy on either part under any pretense, not even the pretense of respect. My power to control comes from completely exposing who I am, not from false invulnerability created by guarding my exposure to you.

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 9

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 9:17:25 AM

DominantJenny

Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Degree of trust - Like you, I have degrees of trust. My initial degree, my default trust level is very high compared to most people. I initially trust people with everything except my money and my life. If they do harm, then I retract trust.

Importance of trust - To me, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. It has to run both ways or neither will gain it. Trust is a key to inspiring love.

Mutual trust requires mutual exposure. Exposure is vulnerability. Vulnerability proves trust. Trust inspires love. Love makes surrender and control possible. If you are to succeed at a 100% power exchange, there is no room for secrets or privacy on either part under any pretense, not even the pretense of respect. My power to control comes from completely exposing who I am, not from false invulnerability created by guarding my exposure to you.

Oh, well said and agreed!

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 10

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 10:27:36 AM

MrSpectacular

Posts: 1153
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I actually an never comfortable with the word trust - it is such a loaded and misinterpreted concept. We are the ones solely responsible for what we decide to do - so for example - if someone has 'betrayed your trust' - rather than making a judgment on them - you decide what is the right thing for you in any particular circumstance. Using 'trust' for me in someway abdicates what are the root of the true feelings. If your partner has an affair - the trust has not gone etc - you have been hurt (or not). Your decision on if you want to continue is not based upon re-building trust - but on whether being hurt once is enough or you have looked at the dynamic and can work things out enough so that it will not happen again. Yes you can say that trust needs to be re-built - but it is an easy way out and does not address the root of what a problem is.- hence why I am not comfortable with it. Getting to the root of what the issue is - is for me what I seek.
Hope my rambling makes a little sense. Please don't flame me if you disagree - it is just an opinion and not meant to be a judgment.

_____________________________

Yes I am Spectacular and they are real!

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 11

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 3:04:54 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Othie
How do you view trust? One of the lines I read the most when it comes to BDSM is "trust is earned". Personally to me, trust is more like nesting dolls, with layers upon layers...
What do you think of trust? Clearly it is something very important in any relationship, and that is, if anything, even more true in a BDSM relationship. But just what is trust?

Degree of trust - Like you, I have degrees of trust. My initial degree, my default trust level is very high compared to most people. I initially trust people with everything except my money and my life. If they do harm, then I retract trust.

Importance of trust - To me, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. It has to run both ways or neither will gain it. Trust is a key to inspiring love.

Mutual trust requires mutual exposure. Exposure is vulnerability. Vulnerability proves trust. Trust inspires love. Love makes surrender and control possible. If you are to succeed at a 100% power exchange, there is no room for secrets or privacy on either part under any pretense, not even the pretense of respect. My power to control comes from completely exposing who I am, not from false invulnerability created by guarding my exposure to you.

Degree of trust - Unlike you, I have a default almost entirely lacking in trust. Ontological insecurity? Paradoxically, because I never could trust as a child, I tend therefore not to be able to distinguish between situations which I can trust, and those that I cannot. This makes me look-like, and behave like a risk taker.

Importance of trust - To me, also, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. But since my default mode doesn't recognise it within me very well then I don't discriminate well about others. This shows up as naivety on my part in that I appear to trust everybody in the same degree.

Mutual trust requires mutual exposure. ...I absolutely agree and think this very well expressed. But that means that not only has someone got to want to stick around my inadequacies in trust long enough to want to 'teach me it. this shows up like I am making themm responsible for embueing the relationship with trust whilst not showing any myself.
Trust inspires love. ........also superbly put. Love makes surrender possible...yes and I can understand this in a spiritual fashion in my abilities to surrender to the unknown ideal but not to an uniknown reality. does that make sense or not? If i am to succeed at a 100% power exchange, there is no room for secrets or privacy on my part about my inability to trust but this shows up as a lack of respect. on my part.
I used to blame the way in which I was reared, (or not) and the way I was held (or not) and so on but 'blaming' someone else, especially my mother, still doesn't solve the circularity and the conundrum.
One day I am going to just jump in feet first, take the risk and I will be caught instead of drowning.

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To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 12

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 5:39:02 PM

Begsnice

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline

There really is no such thing as trust.
We take chances, sometimes we get lucky sometimes we dont.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 13

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 5:42:15 PM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Begsnice

There really is no such thing as trust.
We take chances, sometimes we get lucky sometimes we dont.

You are making a joke right?

And wouldn't you know, right after I say I will try to be nicer.......

I hope that works out well for you, cupcake.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to Begsnice)

Post #: 14

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 6:03:34 PM

Begsnice

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/31/2005
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No im not joking. People are imperfect. How can you really trust something that is fallible?
Like you for instance...good thing we didnt trust you to be nicer!

(in reply to OldBastardly1)

Post #: 15

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 6:06:22 PM

OldBastardly1

Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

LMAO...but I WAS being nicer, LOL

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Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad

(in reply to Begsnice)

Post #: 16

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 8:30:30 PM

summersprite

Posts: 101
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline

Obviously in any relationship there is an extra element of trust needed....... but moreso in a BDSM relationship, which is why more of the trust needs to be negotiated in advance, particularly from a submissive's point of view. I used "gut instinct", communication, and information about that person, to guide me as to whether I could trust them, and how much. Luckily, I was right...
(As we're only human, this is never fail-safe but is better protection that blind faith.)

I also like what chamberqueen said, "...I feel that trust is given in pieces. I trust someone to care for my body before my heart, for instance". ....So true.

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 17

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 8:33:53 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Your decision on if you want to continue is not based upon re-building trust - but on whether being hurt once is enough or you have looked at the dynamic and can work things out enough so that it will not happen again. Yes you can say that trust needs to be re-built - but it is an easy way out and does not address the root of what a problem is.- hence why I am not comfortable with it. Getting to the root of what the issue is - is for me what I seek.

makes perfect sense...especially for some of us who have "been there, done that"(gosh, i hate to use such passe cliches)

(in reply to MrSpectacular)

Post #: 18

RE: Question of trust - 5/3/2008 9:40:46 PM

EnferCatin

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

In BDSM tread very carefully in the trust department. Many are not what they seem and we who dwell on our knees must learn to be very savvy and discriminating, otherwise near disaster can often occur.

Trust is earned. It's that simple really. Anyone who expects it immediately from you wants simply to use you.

I think you're right, trust is like a Russian Doll or an onion, there are many layers to it. I think it's worth getting to the core - but it's often a painful, disappointing process. It's a rare person who has earned my complete trust, but those who have I will cherish forever.

(in reply to Othie)

Post #: 19

RE: Question of trust - 5/4/2008 8:21:19 AM

Lumus

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Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline

To the OP:

I'm a bit of an odd duck re trust. Where applicable [for those I care to know well], I tend to begin with complete trust. That's not to say I jump off bridges when other people do; I don't.

Rather, based on what areas I feel trust is pertinent, I give it, fully. I also make that choice clear to whomever it's applicable to. That way, instead of creating the illusion of jumping through hoops to earn a little appreciation, I create an environment where the person can be themselves. It has also been effective for me to point out when the trust I've granted is lost, rather than telling someone they are "more trustworthy"; it is more significant in that if the person values my trust, they are far more likely to make the effort to mend fences than strive to be "worthier" [the tendency created when one starts from nothing and has to work upwards].

Mind you, that's just my take, and I know quite well that it doesn't suit most people. It works for me, and until such time as it doesn't I'll continue with it.

_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to EnferCatin)

Post #: 20

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