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RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 11:40:04 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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I don't know where that "Tax the corporations!" people are. Me, I'm basically a Socialist, but I see the futility of increasing corporate taxes as the costs are, as you noted, passed on.

As I said, I haven't thought through the merits of eliminating corporations. I have to do much more reading before I come to a conclusion.

After giving the matter many, many hours of consideration, I don't think all drugs should be (re)legalized. PCP and phenethylamine stimulants are horrible drugs and should remain illegal IMO. I agree with a consumption tax, but I would not put a percentage out there before modeling pricing (the tax is part of the price); reason being, the total price should be lower than the cost of black market distribution. Definitely fund "rehab" clinics. Who knows how much money would be freed up from the imprisonment industry, but there'd be a whole lot less corruption amongst LEOs, lawyers, and legislators.

The US has been on what is, essentially, a war economy for 60 years. End it. Use the military for defense ONLY. Period. Shut down all overseas bases. A peaceful country has no need to project power. Put all that money, and scientific and engineering expertise, to work building a cost-effective national ground-based transportation system. Start a "Manhattan Project" for energy independence. Fund a nationwide system of "triage" clinics. Dunno where I read it, but I read the best healthcare systems have excellent, available, inexpensive first-line (GP/Nurse practitioner level) care. Eliminate hospitals. Instead, have regional centers which do only one type of extended care. One facility does nothing but eye surgery. One does hearts. One does knee/hip replacements. And so on. That eliminates the need for a facility to keep supplies and equipment for all contingencies. (probably merits a thread)

I don't know about reciprocal tarriffs. I more favor retaliatory tarriffs. Haven't thought about it much.

I'll have to think some more about this stuff.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 21

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 1:15:55 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

well Hip, you wont see the US voluntarily giving up managing the globe from Washington...

it wasnt too long ago when michael milken was put in jail for junk bonds.... so now bonds backed by real estate, insured by a company, certified by more then one real person; these bonds they claim are in need of bail out.

--one thing about corporations- they sue eachother left and right, they destroy eachother. all over market share, and extracting money.

right now the airline industry is near collapse, 3 bankrupsies.

just in time inventory --

no one is respondsable. in fact, no one is ever responsable for anything.

i heard on bloomberg tv some CEO was gonna take heat this week over his pay.

catstrohize a pension plan, get golden parachute.

notice the trucker protest got maybe 5 seconds of coverage. they now are talking of a slowdown/stopage.

main media is clueless. the nonsense that passes for news. we are stupid for not voting with our $/feet.

the talking heads so lame- who beleives them anymore??

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 22

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 1:30:51 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

well Hip, you wont see the US voluntarily giving up managing the globe from Washington...

it wasnt too long ago when michael milken was put in jail for junk bonds.... so now bonds backed by real estate, insured by a company, certified by more then one real person; these bonds they claim are in need of bail out.

--one thing about corporations- they sue eachother left and right, they destroy eachother. all over market share, and extracting money.

right now the airline industry is near collapse, 3 bankrupsies.

just in time inventory --

no one is respondsable. in fact, no one is ever responsable for anything.

i heard on bloomberg tv some CEO was gonna take heat this week over his pay.

catstrohize a pension plan, get golden parachute.

notice the trucker protest got maybe 5 seconds of coverage. they now are talking of a slowdown/stopage.

main media is clueless. the nonsense that passes for news. we are stupid for not voting with our $/feet.

the talking heads so lame- who beleives them anymore??

Who believes talking heads? Damned if I know, I don't watch news anymore. Maybe I'll check the weather if the sky looks tornado-y.

There's a direct line from Michael Milliken to Enron's massive fraud. Read the link I gave.

Let's clarify things: We won't see rich white men giving up control from Washington.

Personally, I think we're in the beginning stages of a worldwide meltdown.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 23

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 2:10:34 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

check out what they are trying to do in Canada... http://www.healthcanadaexposed.com/c51backups/Canadian%20Rights%20Facts.htm

60% herbs would be drugs- picking dandalion a drug

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 24

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 3:27:52 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

check out what they are trying to do in Canada... http://www.healthcanadaexposed.com/c51backups/Canadian%20Rights%20Facts.htm

60% herbs would be drugs- picking dandalion a drug

No, that is what ONE website CLAIMS that Act would cause to occur. NOT the same thing. Always consider that there may be unscrupulous people who write alarmist propaganda so that they can continue doing unscrupulous shit.

Read the Act and see if you agree. I did, and I don't.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 25

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 3:48:47 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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Surely these small businesses are debt financed. It follows thus the financiers will expect the business plan to suggest you will make sufficient profits from which to pay their interest. Who in their right mind will lend money when the business plan suggests there will be no profit from which to pay interest? and, even more importantly, no profit reserves for redemption.

'No wonder there's a recession.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 26

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 4:00:31 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

deduct 100% of the interest paid.

This makes no sense. Explain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There is more than enough legal opportunity to reduce paying tax.

True. It's called Tax Planning - not Tax Avoidance.

'Seems you have a different system over there when it comes to tax.

Your Business Plan sounds suspect though, Merc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The goal isn't to pay none

I should think so, too, because no tax = no profits = unsustainable = no business.

Mind you, if your Business Plan strategy is anything to go by....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

to try and digress from the point.

What point? The one where you stated income less expenses is IBIT, when in fact it's not....it's Earnings Before Interest and Tax.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Apparently you can't think of one way to tax a corporation without the result being a increased cost on the end consumer of the Corporations products or services.

I haven't contributed to that part of your OP......purely because the other part of your post leaves a lot to be desired, so I have no incentive to entertain your theories.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 27

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 4:20:22 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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What's so difficult to explain regarding interest. Residential interest in the US is 100% deductible when reporting for income tax calculation. Furthermore, if you have a 2nd home, which can be a boat, trailer, or motor home; and you meet the threshold for staying there a certain number of days, any interest on the loan securing the property, boat, or motor home is 100% deducted from income.

quote:

True. It's called Tax Planning - not Tax Avoidance.
'Seems you have a different system over there when it comes to tax.
Your Business Plan sounds suspect though, Merc

Again with the semantics? Nowhere did I claim that this was/is my business plan; however if the any of those situations happen to come into play - I and my corporation will take advantage of them - legally.

If you don't understand and are so completely ignorant to the US tax system,Corporate and Individual, maybe it's better if you don't contribute until you learn more.

quote:

I should think so, too, because no tax = no profits = unsustainable = no business.

Another misrepresentation; but to take on your tangent - why not? Why is a profit required to sustain a business. If I can pay all bills, all salaries (including mine), and zero out or come close to reporting no income why isn't that sustainable? Most 3rd and 4th quarter purchases are made specifically to spend money which would have been income. The other trick is to keep the purchases below the amount requiring that they be amortized.

Another favorite tactic is to expense a business trip. For instance, I may want to expand my business into Tahiti. I take my wife, listed as the Corporate 'secretary' (slave isn't a recognized Corporate position) and we travel 1st class to check out the financing opportunities; stopping at whatever passes as the Banking department, picking up a few forms and reading them in the best light - on the beach. Maybe I can arrange a gourmet business dinner with the appropriate local official or another Banker to discuss the opportunities.

Now I've never done that in Tahiti, but you can be sure that last weeks New Orleans trip included a business conversation or two. My accountant said the company was making too much money as a result of the interest rate reduction and the 'economic stimulus' package. So we redistributed some of it in New Orleans.

The result is, instead of having to pay taxes on whatever that trip cost, I enjoyed a vacation. Albeit a 'working' vacation. Much preferable than sending any more money to a dysfunctional government and failed social programs.

quote:

The one where you stated income less expenses is IBIT, when in fact it's not....it's Earnings Before Interest and Tax.

Yup that was the point of the thread - addressing IBIT; glad you covered that. Maybe that's why Corporations can't be touched. The definition stands and the result is the same - You have no answer.

quote:

I haven't contributed to that part of your OP......purely because the other part of your post leaves a lot to be desired, so I have no incentive to entertain your theories.

Excuses, excuses; never answers NG. I admire your consistency. You already have entertained me with your inability to answer and your dance around semantics and tangents.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/29/2008 4:31:05 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 28

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 4:20:30 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I regard business plans as, more or less, marketing tools used to convince investors to give me money.

A decent investment appraisal system will identify gaps and weaknesses. I'd advise anyone devising a business plan to be fully committed and to make it realistic, so you agree with the bank where and when you can pay interest and satisfy debt redemption - 'last thing you need is the baillifs being called in because you've promised what you can't deliver.

The other main function of a business plan is to act as a control mechanism, i.e. to control performance. You can't possibly hope to maximise performance without a sound business plan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Pro Formas usually are about as meaningful as "Mission Statements" or "Code of Ethics".

A mission statement? 'Can be very useful. Fuji's Mission Statement was "Kill Kodak"...that was it........it was very effective in painting the company's strategy as an aggressive one, which the employees readily understood.

From the mission statement, the culture of the business is derived and that's important.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Anyways, it's always been interesting to me just what kinds of corporate crimes can be hidden in the footnotes.

Any decent auditors will unearth accounting fraud at the executive level - unless there's a spot of collusion.

Take Enron as an example. They were charging loans to the P&L account and classifying it as income to increase profits, and they were putting other loans through the subsiduary's accounts and not consolidating them, which thus increased ROCE and reduced gearing. They got away with this because the auditors were also the consultants and thus had a vested interest in returning inaccurate financial statements.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 29

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 4:39:04 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

What's so difficult to explain regarding interest. Residential interest in the US is 100% deductible when reporting for income tax calculation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

deduct 100% of the interest paid.

You must see the contradiction in your above two quotes? and how the second statement is incorrect?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Nowhere did I claim that this was/is my business plan; however if the any of those situations happen to come into play - I and my corporation will take advantage of them - legally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

When putting together a Corporate business plan the number you shoot for it IBIT.

The above is from your OP. You're talking of producing a business plan. As said, in the event an accountant aims to minimise profit in the business plan, I'd get a new one - sharpish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Why is a profit required to sustain a business.

Are you serious?

Profitability is a measure of your operating efficiency, and your income is generated through operating. If you're not efficient, it will be unsustainable. Of course, you need cash liquidity from which to pay your bills...but if you're working on the "cash is king" principle, it's only king where you operate efficiently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If I can pay all bills, all salaries (including mine), and zero out or come close to reporting no income why isn't that sustainable?

Because you're going to have to make a profit from which to invest in your business - new technology, assets etc whatever it may be.......unless of course you wish to stand still and, assuming you're in a competitive environment, eventually go under.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The definition stands and the result is the same - You have no answer.

Refusing to accept an error tells a story.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 4/29/2008 4:53:05 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Sorry, interest paid is 100% deductible, to deduct it you have to pay it. If that's not your point, you'll have to clarify the semantic difference you see for me to respond.

quote:

You're talking of producing a business plan.

No - I'm talking about conduction business. You may have a problem differentiating.

Nowhere is it represented that personally I pay no taxes. QUITE the contrary. The subject, which you refuse to address, is Corporate taxes and manipulating them by using legal, your words, "Tax Planning" methods. I like a clearer representation and call them what they are - Tax avoidance.

quote:

Profitability is a measure of your operating efficiency, and your income is generated through operating.

Once again the topic is CORPORATE. Personal assets and liquidity are not at issue. To that point, sometimes I 'borrow' from the Corporations, sometimes the Corporation 'borrows' from me - Depends on the tax result I want to achieve.

quote:

Refusing to accept an error tells a story.

I LOVE making errors and make it a point to represent positions and make decisions that generate them in order to learn. Ever try it?

Sure I've made errors and mistakes and I'm confident I'll make more. However, unless all I've acquired and accomplished is a figment of my imagination; my 'business plan' seems to be working very well in real life.

Thanks for your usual contribution NG. Very enlightening and wonderfully entertaining.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 31

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 3:25:12 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

When putting together a Corporate business plan the number you shoot for it IBIT. The smaller the corporation the closer to zero you want that IBIT number. It's a economic exercise that you work from both ends of the equation.

Your business sense seems to amount to earning sufficient to pay yourself and your employees - your call.

It's misleading and bad advice, however, to apply your business sense to other businesses.

As said, a business aiming to generate real value through a competitive and investment approach should not, under any circumstances, compile a business plan that aims for a "close to zero" EBIT or look to tax planning as a means of sustainability.

Re-investing profits into business and being competitive through value added activities, is sound business sense.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 32

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 6:39:10 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

When putting together a Corporate business plan the number you shoot for it IBIT. The smaller the corporation the closer to zero you want that IBIT number. It's a economic exercise that you work from both ends of the equation.

Your business sense seems to amount to earning sufficient to pay yourself and your employees - your call.

It's misleading and bad advice, however, to apply your business sense to other businesses.

As said, a business aiming to generate real value through a competitive and investment approach should not, under any circumstances, compile a business plan that aims for a "close to zero" EBIT or look to tax planning as a means of sustainability.

Re-investing profits into business and being competitive through value added activities, is sound business sense.

Big, small, creating capital, or zero out and distribute profits; no way that any increase of tax will impact them without impacting the workers, and/or the consumer. Whether it works or not is immaterial to the OP. Re-investing profits is appropriate in some cases, isn't in others. I'll provide a simple example. If, as in my case, the corporation has one major shareholder and he/she is also an employee, and the corporate tax rate is 35% and the effective personal tax rate is anything less than that - why not pay out any 'profit' as a 'bonus'? It would be "bad advise" if my accountant did NOT recommend that action.

But that is an immaterial as your tangents. The challenge was to tax a corporation - choose to selectively ignore that point if you will. Only remember it, and your inability to make a counter argument, when pointing to a 'tax the corporation' solution or supporting a 'tax the corporation' political candidate. Or continue to allow them to fool you, as they have when they want to increase funding to failed social programs and call that "change".

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 33

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 7:07:00 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I'll provide a simple example. If, as in my case, the corporation has one major shareholder and he/she is also an employee, and the corporate tax rate is 35% and the effective personal tax rate is anything less than that - why not pay out any 'profit' as a 'bonus'?

1) You may hold debt finance; it follows thus you will need to pay interest from your EBIT to say in business.

2) Assuming you operate in a competitive environment, you are going to need to remain competitive. Any business, regardless of size, will need to ensure quality control, i.e. technology/machinery etc - you will need to reinvest in your business to reamin competitive and sustainable. Think long term sustainability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The challenge was to tax a corporation - choose to selectively ignore that point if you will.

Merc, you're amusing, I'll give you that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

'tax the corporation' solution

Play by the rules - plain and simple.

The US Corporation Tax is 35%? Get some like-minded friends together and work to reduce it through the ballot box.

Or relocate your business to the UK.........small businesses face a 20% CT, here.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 34

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 8:28:19 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I'll provide a simple example. If, as in my case, the corporation has one major shareholder and he/she is also an employee, and the corporate tax rate is 35% and the effective personal tax rate is anything less than that - why not pay out any 'profit' as a 'bonus'?

1) You may hold debt finance; it follows thus you will need to pay interest from your EBIT to say in business.

2) Assuming you operate in a competitive environment, you are going to need to remain competitive. Any business, regardless of size, will need to ensure quality control, i.e. technology/machinery etc - you will need to reinvest in your business to remain competitive and sustainable. Think long term sustainability.

Personally, the Corporation currently has no debt. Selling money the only need for remaining competitive and sustainable is a continuing source of low cost funds which requires 24/7 attention but little capital investment. More important in 'personnel' investment. To that end - I'm very invested in my people, and they to me. The shortest tenured employee working for the Corporation is me. However, both things you point to would occur, and would already be considered, BEFORE distribution of any remaining profits subject to the 35% tax rate. They would not need to be considered again prior to the distribution of profits to officers and stockholders where the exact same amount is subject to 50% of that tax rate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The challenge was to tax a corporation - choose to selectively ignore that point if you will.

Amusing or not - STILL.

quote:

Or relocate your business to the UK.........small businesses face a 20% CT, here.

Considering the recent election results that may not be a bad idea.

Thanks for the invite! Know any good accountants?

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 35

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 9:14:36 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

However, both things you point to would occur, and would already be considered, BEFORE distribution of any remaining profits

Great news.

You should have said you agree with me a few posts back, and we could have avoided this exchange.....time is money, Merc, as you'll know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Thanks for the invite!

Think nothing of it, Merc.....'all in a day's work.

I'm intrigued to know, though, why you think I have the power to go above immigration control and take it upon myself to invite you in.

Never mind, best of luck in the event you do decide to take advantage of our flexible tax system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Know any good accountants?

We do have tighter Corporate Governance over here - particularly the relationship between Risk Management, Internal Audit and External Audit - which means the auditors are less likely to be the consultants over here and you'll get a fair crack of the whip in the event you play by the rules.

Good accountants?....ten a penny 'round these parts, Merc......Financial and Business Services is where the English excel....ask us to build a car and you'll get a something on 3 wheels....but we're very good with regard to financial matters.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 36

RE: I'm a Corporation - Tax me. Go ahead try... - 5/3/2008 11:51:41 AM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Looks like some big bonuses for the oil companies this year. One quarter, 90 days of income - $7.8 Billion for Shell. No way to tax it. $4 - $5 / gallon at the pump.

quote:

BP's pre-tax profits rose 48 per cent in the first quarter to $6.6 billion (£3.3 billion) while Shell increased its profits 12 per cent to a record $7.8 billion (£3.9 billion). Source: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3837029.ece

Tax the Corporations!

How?

Ya know...I've been pondering your question for a while, because it's a valid one, insomuch as we are currently one of the higher taxed countries as to corporate tax, and the argument that at some higher level, the incentive to move production out of the country provides fewer jobs, ergo "who could afford (their products)" and so on is equally intriguing.

Maybe we have an accountant on board here somewhere who can help a little with this but...while individual tax rates rise with your income...it seems to me that the corporate rate is somewhat static...maybe at around 27% or so?

Someone correct me on that if you know differently...but if that's true, I suspect the solution to your dilema about companies leaving the country so to speak is in the same system for corporations.

I know it sounds a bit simplistic, but possibly it's an area to look at.

On a similar note however, is a much larger and likely more pressing issue in that it debates the need to even do so:

I can't quote the stats on this, no doubt they're available on the net...but I'm lazy...so, anyway...corporations are paying a significantly larger share of the total tax burden (not more dollars...a larger percentage of the entire bill) than they were 10 and even 20 years ago, which naturally means that individuals are paying less of the total share that pays for our roads, schools, etc.

Moreover, the top 10% of taxpayers are also paying a signifiacntly larger share of the total than they were 10 and 20 years ago as well...and all of the above is due to the tax reductions of both the Reagan era as well as the more recent Bush tax changes and reductions, because the lower earners benefited more on a percentage basis.

So, clearly an argument could as easily be made that those in the lower rungs of earners need to have their taxes increased.

I'm sure that wouldn't go over all that well at the next election, nevertheless...with all the people claiming they're not doing as well as they were 10 and 20 years ago (and it very easily can be proven to be true), may want to look into the fairness issues of their personal tax burdens as well, realizing possibly that with the feds and states taking in less per individual than they were 20 years ago, the truth is, all the folks who are in those lower tiers, have been subsequently overburdened in those same 20 years with inumerable "use taxes", increases in local and state sales, real estate and excise taxes, higher tolls on the freeways and such, none of which affect the wealthier because while it can equate to as much as 15 - 25% of a lower wage earners income...it's often well under a percentage point differential for the wealthier players.

In short, when we were all paying higher taxes on the whole, it's entirely arguable that the folks who have had their federal taxes lowered on a percentage basis more significantly than those at the top...they were probably (and in fact statistically) financially better off.

< Message edited by Griswold -- 5/3/2008 12:10:28 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 37

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