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How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 2:05:56 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		In my CM experience, I find the lot of you are quite smart.  I was in a special sort of debate, for sport.  It's called "Prove me wrong."

The idea is to test whether you accept facts because you are told them by authority.  How do you know the Earth is round? In my first round of "Prove Me Wrong." I was unable to do so.  I realized that I took the FACT "The Earth is round" for the very same reasons Colombus's crew took the FACT "The Earth is flat."

Rules:
1) The starter gives certain empirical truths to support a claim.
2) You may cite sources, but must use your own words (i.e. no link to a book by Stephen Hawkin)
3) You may use hypothetical situations, whether likely or not, so long as they are not impossible.

So here we go...

Earth is the center of the universe.  Prove me wrong.

1) I see the sun and moon circling us, every day and night, we must be in the center.
2) There are stars all around us, we must be in the center.
3) Assuming space is infinitely large, we can travel infinite miles in any direction.  Since we can go exactly the same amount right as we can left, we must be in the center.

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 2:21:50 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I took astronomy in college, and I passed it.  I had to work hard and study myself into headaches to get through math and science courses.  So I don't consider this a fun exercise.  I have no desire to do homework when I am relaxing.  Thanks for the challenge, but I believe I will decline. 

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 2:53:56 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Where's Galileo when we need him?

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 2:58:26 PM   
LondonArt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

3) Assuming space is infinitely large, we can travel infinite miles in any direction.  Since we can go exactly the same amount right as we can left, we must be in the center.


If we accept  the infinity of space in the form presented here, the notion of a "center" becomes irrelevant. In an infinite universe there is no special position in the universe, and all known physical laws can be formulated independent of location. If the notion of a center is rendered meaningless, then sensible discussion of whether any one particular place is in the center breaks down.

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 3:23:00 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I am the center of my universe.

The motions of the sun, moon, and stars is irrelevant.

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 3:39:18 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper
1) I see the sun and moon circling us, every day and night, we must be in the center.
2) There are stars all around us, we must be in the center.
3) Assuming space is infinitely large, we can travel infinite miles in any direction.  Since we can go exactly the same amount right as we can left, we must be in the center.


1) The centre of anything is a fixed position, the earth rotates around the sun thus the earth is not the centre of anything.

2) There are rats all around my house, and? 

3) Space is the nothing and everything a container for the substance of the universe. You may find it quicker going left to find the end of the substance.

The earth isn't round its two hemispheres.

Nothing is flat; flatness is the human delusion of an impossible perfection.

-------------------------------

When I close the fridge the light remains on.

1) It is on when I open the door even during the day when it need not be on.

2) Even bacteria need street lighting.

3) JUST BECAUSE.


See what I did with the backwards staR

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/25/2008 3:46:29 PM >

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 3:48:19 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Where's Galileo when we need him?


Inspiring "flat buns" commercials.

Cali


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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 3:51:13 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The earth isn't round its two hemispheres.

Naaah, it's an oblate spheroid.

So the OP's not into Keplerian motion, huh?

thornhappy

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 3:56:34 PM   
MladyHathor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I am the center of my universe.

The motions of the sun, moon, and stars is irrelevant.



Teacher!!! He looked on My paper!!!

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:17:44 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I am the center of my universe.

The motions of the sun, moon, and stars is irrelevant.


You might not think that if the sun moved too far away from or too close to the earth. The position of our star is the fluke that gives life to the earth.

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:28:39 PM   
metalmiss


Posts: 341
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From: Croydon, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LondonArt

If we accept  the infinity of space in the form presented here, the notion of a "center" becomes irrelevant. In an infinite universe there is no special position in the universe, and all known physical laws can be formulated independent of location. If the notion of a center is rendered meaningless, then sensible discussion of whether any one particular place is in the center breaks down.



What he said!!


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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:30:36 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
I am the center of my universe.

The motions of the sun, moon, and stars is irrelevant.


You might not think that if the sun moved too far away from or too close to the earth. The position of our star is the fluke that gives life to the earth.

If you're going to get that technical about it, you need to provide suitable quantities of beer to lubricate the discussion.

Margaritas will be accepted in lieu of beer

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:45:08 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: FullCircle

1) The centre of anything is a fixed position, the earth rotates around the sun thus the earth is not the centre of anything.

Response:  1/2 correct, the center must be fixed.  But can you prove the Earth circles the sun?  Ignoring all other systems, which was done here, the earth moving clockwise around the sun is the same motion as the sun moving counterclockwise around the earth.

2) There are rats all around my house, and?

Then you are in the middle of the rats.

3) Space is the nothing and everything a container for the substance of the universe. You may find it quicker going left to find the end of the substance.

There is no end, assuming an infinite universe.




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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:46:46 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: LondonArt

If we accept  the infinity of space in the form presented here, the notion of a "center" becomes irrelevant. In an infinite universe there is no special position in the universe, and all known physical laws can be formulated independent of location. If the notion of a center is rendered meaningless, then sensible discussion of whether any one particular place is in the center breaks down.

Response: Rather true, funny how the concept of infinity negates so many things. 

Edit:  I've reminded myself about the nature of infinity.  Do you subscribe to the belief that infinities are of different ages and grow at different speeds, or do you consider infinity to be a constant of growth/original start period (infinity = infinity).




< Message edited by HeavansKeeper -- 4/25/2008 4:53:38 PM >

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:49:43 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		Think we should do another one of these?

Also, I thought it went unsaid, then I remembered this is the internet.  I'm just being devil's advocate here.  I know the Earth circles the sun, and I don't mean to give anyone a hard time.


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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 4:49:48 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Where's Galileo when we need him?


Inspiring "flat buns" commercials.

Cali





_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 5:05:32 PM   
LondonArt


Posts: 101
Joined: 4/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper


Edit:  I've reminded myself about the nature of infinity.  Do you subscribe to the belief that infinities are of different ages and grow at different speeds, or do you consider infinity to be a constant of growth/original start period (infinity = infinity).





There are different infinities, but they differ in a qualitive manner at a mathematical level, rather than physically differing in actual scope. The difference between this can be demonstrated by considering the set of all natural numbers, which is countably infinite (that is to say, each member of the set can be placed in direct correspondence with exactly one natural number). This is Aleph Null. Other countably infinite sets include the set of all primes, or all odd numbers. The set of all real numbers on the other hand cannot be placed into one to one correspondence with the natural numbers (See Cantor's Diagonal Argument for a simple proof of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument), it is an uncountable infinity, Aleph One. They are both infinite, but one is qualitatively different from the other.

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 5:09:41 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		If you will accept the proposition that if I prove that the Earth is not the center of our own solar system, it  thus cannont be the center of the universe, then the following:

If the Earth were at the center of the solar system, we would notice the other, outer planets moving in perfect, continuous arcs across the sky. But they don't. They move part of the year in "retrograde."

The two plannets sunward of us, Venus and Mercury, are also seen going through phases in their lighting from the sun, much the same way that the Earth's moon does. This can only happen if they are in orbits closer to the sun than we are. (The outer planets can only be seen in gibbeous, or full.) Also, their apparent orbital motion reveals that they seem to rise above the horizion, then sink below it again. More proof that they are in inner orbits in relation to Earth.

Thus, Earth is somewhere in the middle of it's solar system. QED

I could go into variences in the Hubble red shift, which proves that the Earth is not at the center of the observable universe, but I think one such explanation is enough for one day. Hope it helps you with your Astronomy final. (Which you are obviously fishing for answers for.)

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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 5:10:12 PM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

1) The centre of anything is a fixed position, the earth rotates around the sun thus the earth is not the centre of anything.

Response:  1/2 correct, the center must be fixed.  But can you prove the Earth circles the sun?  Ignoring all other systems, which was done here, the earth moving clockwise around the sun is the same motion as the sun moving counterclockwise around the earth.

2) There are rats all around my house, and?

Then you are in the middle of the rats.

3) Space is the nothing and everything a container for the substance of the universe. You may find it quicker going left to find the end of the substance.

There is no end, assuming an infinite universe.





You can easily prove the earth rotates around the sun and this has been done long ago in the past by mapping star and planetary positions as Level pointed out, I don't have to prove the obvious do I?

The space is infinite but the universe has limits if you follow the big bang theory, which I do for the time being.

Infinite is just another big number. Just as random ultimately has a pattern that eludes us.




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RE: How Much Do You Really Know? - 4/25/2008 5:14:40 PM   
LondonArt


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Joined: 4/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Infinite is just another big number. Just as random ultimately has a pattern that eludes us.



It actually isn't. Infinitely is qualatively rather than just quantatively different from simply being a very large number.

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