Humiliation and the female bottom

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FatDomDaddy -> Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 4:39:43 PM)
There is a context to which I want to explore my curiosity into the realm of humiliation in the community but I am finding some slippery slopes in my exploration. I don't think that it is too much to ask, that the woman be strong, smart, independent and have high self esteem. someone who craves on humiliation deep within herself but maintains her self-confident strong nature otherwise. I do not find the two contradicting at all and in fact, I believe all types of submission should come from positions of strength. More so, (I've caught a lot of heat for this btw) I've always believed in whatever initials one chooses (T/b, D/s, M/s even TPE) for the dynamic both parties must be coequals, the Yin and Yang so to speak. Without trying to sound like a personal ad I am beginning to wonder if humiliation and shame can exist with high self esteem and self confidence. In other words, can humiliation be taken out of the box and played without leaving a little of itself in the host? Can shame and humiliation just be role play?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 4:41:36 PM)
FDD- my intelligence and strength are the main things which make humiliation/degradation/objectification so wonderful for me And I call timeout on future humiliation threads for a month- this is the third in a week. Here is my essay again on what objectification/humiliation means and does to me. My most common form of objectification is as a sex toy and a servant. Part of it is BECAUSE of my academic background, I'm very smart and very well educated. I think a LOT, I work a LOT, I am a control freak, I have moderate OCD, I am the social planner for my group of friends. Being an object means you don't have to think, you don't have to stress, you just have to BE that object. You are there, purely and passively, for service and use. There's no need for you to interpret anything, no need for you to react, only simply to BE there. That's a pretty awesome state of being for me. Another part, the shown off part, is because I am an exhibitionist, I get a huge charge out of people's energy when they enjoy looking and playing with me. They are giving ME lots of attention, they want to touch ME, they want to use ME for pleasure, I can provide them with a release, with a good time, a good memory. The sexual usage part is just part of my universal sex fantasy life- it's just hot to be used, hot to be a hole to go in, do your thing and get out. I don't really know much about that other than what I've already stated. I can't tell you why it gets me so deep any more than I can tell you why bondage does. Something most subs and slaves can understand- it takes away choice. You don't have to think, you don't get to say no, you are there to always say YES, an object, a trophy doesn't get to say stop or get to dictate how it is used. I am somewhat materialistic in that I like to use my money and gifts to show people I care for them. It's a physical thing I can give to show I've been thinking of them and want to add to their lives. While I understand they don't NEED those things, it's a very powerful idea to me. So, to BE the object itself, to be given to someone else, has a distinct personal flavor to it. You'll notice- all of these reasons are about ME, what I enjoy, what I get out of it. The Owner will pass me around and use me in ways I don't necessarily enjoy directly. He will send me to people I don't have an affinity for, partly because he KNOWS I don't have an affinity for them. So I don't necessarily always love it, with anyone, anywhere. There are definitely circumstances in which I really hate it. While I love attention, I am actually quite uncomfortable ASKING for attention, I am very uneasy when people actually look at me and say "Now, I'm going to give you all this attention, just for you, just to enjoy, and there's nothing you can do about it." Part of it is because not too many people are actually really GOOD at giving me happy pleasure, part of it is that I've trained myself to adapt and become what the OTHER person needs for that session, which, if it's a good match, will also be what I need. And part of it is just my innate shyness and discomfort with being a focal point of attention. I don't know what to do with it, I feel very exposed. Perhaps a paradox for someone who LOVES being exposed, but that's why I call humiliation a "burning." So, the humiliation and objectification is a keen way for me to receive attention, which I love, while being passive about asking for it and simply being a pretty little butterfly that people are attracted to, rather than dealing with the harder ordeal for me of directly asking and directly being told to sit back and enjoy. http://www.collarchat.com/m_557686/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#557707 Embarassment vs humiliation http://www.collarchat.com/m_354018/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#354196 humiliation??? http://www.collarchat.com/m_412944/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#413037 what is good humiliation to you? http://www.collarchat.com/m_426015/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#426025 humiliation vs degradation http://www.collarchat.com/m_489256/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#489324 humiliation and vulnerability http://www.collarchat.com/m_310209/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#310223 Humiliation- verbal and physical http://www.collarchat.com/m_266448/mpage_1/key_humiliation/tm.htm#266532 humiliation ideas Slaves on display via webcam? Fat Cow? Verbal humiliation (rehashed) Humiliation and Degradation Erotic Humiliation Female Humiliation- in the scene Asking for humiliation Favorite Forms of humiliation Humiliation Humliation Play Favorite forms of humiliation Erotic Humiliation and Objectification Why such problems with humiliation? Fun ideas for humiliation Humiliation (2) Verbal Humiliation Help with humiliation please! Your thoughts on humiliation please Questions about humiliation

AMaster -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 4:52:40 PM)
I think one can find both in the same sub. For me there is no joy in dominating, and humiliating someone I do not truly like and respect.

Prinsexx -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 4:59:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy I am beginning to wonder if humiliation and shame can exist with high self esteem and self confidence. Yes. for me it has to. 'P' said to me two very powerful things regarding this. The first was: I son't care how you go and empower yourself (after humiliation). And the other was a question; Do I understand that you are not in a good head-space for humiliation today? Both of these comments will always stay with me. Because I know that humiliation can throw me off kilter if there is the tiniest part of me that esteems myself as actually unworthy and ashamed to admit it.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 4:59:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross And I call timeout on future humiliation threads for a month No

Prinsexx -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 5:12:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AMaster I think one can find both in the same sub. For me there is no joy in dominating, and humiliating someone I do not truly like and respect. Wow, a really clear and concise way of putting it. This has really helped me to see it from a D's perspective. Thank you for that.

marieToo -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 5:22:12 PM)
My level of self-respect borderlines on obnoxious, yet I'm a complete humiliation slut. However, in order for me to submit to humiliation I need to feel secure within the relationship. When that is the case, he can break me down all he likes and I love to wallow in the tears and the pain of it all. In my personal kinkdom there's no greater intimacy.

Tigrita -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 5:54:21 PM)
I agree wholeheartedly with LA, and have a litte to add myself. I consider myself a very strong, confident person, I don't have low self-esteem, but I do struggle with asserting myself in certain situations. Some situations I'm very in control and assertive, particularly sports, and my job as a personal trainer, and in my previous job as a research scientist where I had no problem asserting my ideas. But when someone's needs or desires clearly compete with my own, that submissive side kicks in and I often let things happen to me that aren't good for me just to keep from rocking the boat, or else it is a big huge struggle and challenge to not let that happen. The fact that I do have strong self respect means that once I process it, I do remedy the situation, but it is a big, struggling process that I have to go through in my head about how to fix it without making waves and inconveniencing others or making them feel awkward. How does all of this relate to humiliation play? Well, it is a way to just give in to those things that happen, and those helpless feelings, and those desires to just surrender, no matter how it affects me. There is no pressure to rise up against it to maintain my image or self-respect. There is no pressure to have to remedy it later. It is a safe place where I let those feelings wash over me with someone who I know does respect me, who I don't have to validate myself to. It is very cathartic. It is experiencing that embarassment and helplessness that you normally have to rise above in order to function. If you screw up something at work you can't sink down and just feel it, you have to rise above it and continue your day's work and save face. When you are in a humiliating predicament with a partner who respects you in a BDSM scene, you know there is no alternative but feeling those things that you don't let yourself feel the rest of the time, that take so much effort to ignore or fight against. This is what I enjoy about it

epiphany -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 6:06:20 PM)
Feeling secure in the relationship and knowing I am valued by him is what enables me to go there. Truthfully, I never was interested in humiliation play. I saw it as something disrespectful and potentially damaging. As a top, I refused to go there and be responsible for doing it with another. I am an exhibitionist to a degree, but I am also reserved (I know that sounds contridicting). There are things that will leave me blushing, uncomfortable and sometimes sobbing and begging. To find myself able to beg is disturbing in and of itself. I have rather more than my fair share of pride. In this relationship, he enjoys watching me struggle to endure something I find completely humiliating, he enjoys my tears. I am finding it a powerful form of play, and it has actually strengthened my faith in him and the relationship. That he can veiw me in these moments and love me through them....very powerful. epiphany

catize -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 6:10:50 PM)
Humiliation, I have decided, is a form of masochism for me. I love to feel the burn of it reddening my face as much as I love the sting of a whip reddening the rest of me. To play the fool for a dominant who knows how to create that burn delights and excites me. I wonder sometimes how it is possible to feel shame and pride at the exact same moment. I think what makes it work is his obvious pleasure at what I am willing to do for him.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 6:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx Because I know that humiliation can throw me off kilter if there is the tiniest part of me that esteems myself as actually unworthy and ashamed to admit it. Hense the slippery slope and the need for an extrordinary strong humilitant.

punkdom -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:03:19 PM)
This is such an often covered subject, I will only say that which is not said very often... Humiliation play can be psychologically empowering. If you really study psychology, not everything that is humiliating is necessarily demeaning or damaging to self esteem. One clear example is public nudity. Most people find it humiliating, but the lasting effect of most public nudity is that done right, over the long run it empowers someone to be more at ease about their body in front of others. If you're intelligent, and pick wisely what you humiliate someone about, you can actually make them a better person. Most sources of humiliation are ingrained in a person when they are young through complex messages about what is taboo and what isn't. Psychologically speaking, there is a pretty fine line between punishment and humiliation, both involve reproachment. Humiliations is often just a self-reinforcement mechanism about something a person was reproached about before - look proper, dress dignified, don't belch in public - what have you. Most societal taboos when you really get down to them are pretty silly. Breaking them is humiliating - being forced to pee in front of a guy - but often liberating and empowering. When you force someone to do many things humiliating, you dispel the fear associated with the action. There is also humiliation, however, which reinforces fears and if done can result in long term mental harm to a person. (Proper after care will mitigate its effects, but still isn't 100%) I am completely against certain types of humiliation play because of its possibility to ingrain psychological disorders in people. You have to be extremely careful about any humiliation play related to overall body image. I just assume, don't go there. Its not sporting. Plus, why humiliate someone in a negative way when you can humiliate them in a positive way. Rather than turn a girl into a low self-esteem anorexic with the psychological reinforcement of humiliation, why not mold her into a more confident about her body, sexually unleashed nudist! They're really two sides of the same humiliation play coin. That's why sex talk wise, its better calling someone a "filthy whore" than "fat pig." The former (unless someone has a history of sexual abuse) is generally much more psychologically innocuous over the long haul. The girl you're with is likely never took money for sex - so its easy for the brain after the shock of initial humiliation to not internalize the comment because it is factually untrue. Plus even if a girl does internalizes being called a "dirty whore," worst case it makes the girl self conscious about the number of sex partners they have (not really that bad). Meanwhile, "fat pig" can unleash a torrent of anorexia-bulimia issues. Therefore, if you chose wisely what you humiliate someone about, you won't necessarily make them weaker - and in fact can make them strong. My biggest annoyance is how few Doms truly understand the depths of human psychology. Humiliation is a tool that your parents used, society uses, teachers used etc. Like any tool, it can be used for good or evil. If you're a real craftsman as a Dom, you'll use the tool of humiliation wisely enough to not cause too much lasting damage and hopefully to make your sub a better person.

DesFIP -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:15:56 PM)
I think the only way you can thrive after humiliation is if you have incredibly high levels of self esteem. Which is why I can't handle it. If he says these things to me, then I believe those awful things, and cannot believe him an hour later when he says he doesn't actually think that of me. It's like things shouted in anger, you will always know that's their true opinion and disbelieve stuff that contradicts it.

Leatherist -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:20:57 PM)
If it is done as part of a game-it can be great fun. Seriously-very damaging.

christine1 -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:22:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AMaster I think one can find both in the same sub. For me there is no joy in dominating, and humiliating someone I do not truly like and respect. i am this way, i cannot be humiliated by someone i don't truly like, love and respect. if some joe blow off the street or even off cm wanted to call me a name or humiliate me in some way, i'd tell him to shove it up his ass. but with a dominant that i respect enough to be with and serve...that's a whole different ball of wax. i'm too tired right now to go deeper into this and maybe wide awake i don't truly understand it either...it is what it is for me, it is basic and raw and when the understanding is there...it is magnificent.

AMaster -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:32:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist If it is done as part of a game-it can be great fun. Seriously-very damaging. Good point.

littlebitxxx -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:39:56 PM)
Humiliation is a very popular subject, but I would like to play devil's advocate here. By definition it means to abase someone or to make them feel shame. If a sub/slave/bottom is strong and confident with high self-esteem, how would it be possible for her to feel shame? In a vanilla sense, if the intent of a word or action was to provoke shame in myself, I wouldn't be with you in the first place. Else, I have the choice of how I feel and if I don't allow you to shame me, it won't happen. In the role of sub/bottom/slave, if you asked for some action that you think would make me embarassed or shamed, why should it? If the action pleases you, shouldn't I feel pride in the ability to do so? Name calling, talking dirty, filthy slut talk are all just endearments. And any gesture I could do that pleases you, I would feel pride in the accomplishment not shame in myself. Hence, to me, humiliation is a non sequitur. It just does not compute.

Leatherist -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:47:18 PM)
It's more about embarassment than actual humiliation in most cases. Being forced outside of your comfort zone.

chickpea -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 7:58:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy There is a context to which I want to explore my curiosity into the realm of humiliation in the community but I am finding some slippery slopes in my exploration. I don't think that it is too much to ask, that the woman be strong, smart, independent and have high self esteem. someone who craves on humiliation deep within herself but maintains her self-confident strong nature otherwise. I do not find the two contradicting at all and in fact, I believe all types of submission should come from positions of strength. More so, (I've caught a lot of heat for this btw) I've always believed in whatever initials one chooses (T/b, D/s, M/s even TPE) for the dynamic both parties must be coequals, the Yin and Yang so to speak. Without trying to sound like a personal ad I am beginning to wonder if humiliation and shame can exist with high self esteem and self confidence. In other words, can humiliation be taken out of the box and played without leaving a little of itself in the host? Can shame and humiliation just be role play? Yes, shame and humiliation can be just role play. In any exciting situation out of the ordinary, it produces chemicals that make humiliation a desired thing. But in waking life, thinking positively about yourself and your abilities at the same time easily as well. I don't think both things are intertwined. JMHO

Tigrita -> RE: Humiliation and the female bottom (4/22/2008 8:15:51 PM)
I also agree with punkdom that it is empowering (in my experience). It is allowing yourself to experience those helpless and embarassed feelings, feel that place of being small and weak and vulnerable, but then rising out of it afterwards. Hearing someone call you things you sometimes think of yourself in your most helpless moments, but then coming out of it and realizing that you aren't that low, small, weak person; you are strong, you are able to experience those feelings, and then quiet them and not be a victim of them, and you are in fact valued and respected by both yourself and your partner. Like going to hell and back (though not quite that mellowdramatic, hopefully), and coming out stronger for it, becuase it is always there, and you know you can survive it, rise above it in the end, and be stronger than it except that you choose to give in to it for and with someone you trust. Of course it is very critical to only play with concepts that are not too terribly close to the heart. It is different for everyone, what is too damaging and what can be played with. You have to really know and trust your partner. I highly recommend Midori's workshop on humiliation play, it goes into great detail about how to suss out those limits and that which can be fulfilling for both. I don't want to plagarize her ideas, so I won't spell out any more.

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