RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (Full Version)

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Zensee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/17/2008 5:30:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I wannaknow...is there a sense of humor under that fright wig, and are those authentic avatar shades ?


I wanna know how the death of one of the most important thinkers in the past century got upstaged by a man in bad wig and Elton John shades? And to add insult to injury, the same character (as adorable as he may be) offers a condemnation of chaos theory based on a thorough misunderstanding of the science. Tsk tsk.

It is hard to estimate the impact of chaos theory and fractal geometry on our lives today. Enormous somehow doesn't cover it. Its practical application to modern engineering and design is at least as important as the introduction of calculus.

A sad day but a good life. Thank you, Edward.


Z.




meatcleaver -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 1:32:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

I wannaknow...is there a sense of humor under that fright wig, and are those authentic avatar shades ?


Its time to unvail seeks, he is really comedian Russ Abbot which accounts for the nature of his posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYyUs3FMfHY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEXulXsv1Hw




seeksfemslave -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 4:27:00 AM)

To those who are distraught at the passing of Mr Lorenz or are otherwise of a sensitive disposition I offer my sincerest apologies for any hurt I may have caused.

To others I would ask you to tell me where I am going wrong if I say that Chaos Theory represents an intellectualisation of ignorance based on abstruse mathematics and  when applied is supported with mumbo jumbo arguments relying on deliberately obscure technical jargon used to impress and confuse the unwary.

Just because Mr Lorenz realised that miniscule data input changes to inadequate models entangled in complex computer programmes produced major data output changes when attempting weather predictions is no reason to get mad at me.
I confidently assert that the same result would be obtained by the Global Warming brigade had they the wit to realise that their ideas might be wrong or at least should be tested rigorously.




Real_Trouble -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 6:02:00 AM)

I would like to take a moment to say two things:

1) That's too damn bad; Lorenz was a bright guy and he did some very interesting work.

2) Benoit Mandelbrot discovered the same thing earlier, but has not received the same kind of credit (probably because he is something of a pariah in the academic world).

Life is a strange thing, especially with that wig on seeks' head.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 7:48:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory


I R dum:

quote:

In mathematics and physics, chaos theory describes the behavior of certain nonlinear dynamical systems that may exhibit dynamics that are highly sensitive to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, which manifests itself as an exponential growth of perturbations in the initial conditions, the behavior of chaotic systems appears to be random. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future dynamics are fully defined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.


The synapses of my brain are retracting, very little firing up there now, 'cause I don't get it. Hurts a lil bit, too.

I thought it was something about not being able to ever, ever predict the weather beyond a successive two-week period because things just get kerflooey. (Pretty sure that's the actually scientific terminology.)

"Deterministic chaos" seems to be oxymoronic to me...however, it's quite possible that I am just, ya know, moronic.

Ow.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 8:33:53 AM)

The second quote is what I said.....clumsily.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 8:35:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Its time to unvail seeks, he is really comedian Russ Abbot which accounts for the nature of his posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYyUs3FMfHY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEXulXsv1Hw


Hilarious! (What was the TV show?)
Light on his feet, agreeable singing voice, obviously secure in his "skin," industrious, outdoorsy, clearly enigmatic (haha). Seeks you're a catch!




luckydog1 -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 9:55:17 AM)

Subtee, be carefull, if you point out that Chaos thoery is Deterministic, you make some people very upset.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 9:55:40 AM)

subtee:
You said I had a "small one" yesterday, you hussy.
And after I offered you my deepest sympathy for your Valentines day massacre you said I was gullible.
I notice these things you know !




Emperor1956 -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 10:09:29 AM)

Of course, the entire metaphor of the butterfly and how small differences can effect huge change was stolen from Ray Bradbury's famous short story "A Sound of Thunder". 

and if it weren't for chaos theory, we wouldn't have "fuzzy logic" rice cookers that allow 1/3 of the world's population to wake up to perfectly cooked rice.

and without those rice cookers, we'd have millions of angry, hungry Asians seeking food and recompense; some of them would stop working 18 hour days, limiting their country's GNP and stopping the Asians from buying up all of Great Britain's agricultural and business resources; this would create a huge vacuum in the world economy, hundreds of thousands would leave England seeking work; darcy and the.dark would wind up in Iowa living next to SubTee; after a long winter caused by global warming where the three could barely survive the harsh Iowa winter but for the sustenance provided by a few hardy Native Americans, the three of them would go into the business of selling organic Made-Rites and the universe as we knew it would end.

See how it works?

E.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 10:49:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
darcy and the.dark would wind up in Iowa living next to SubTee;
See how it works?

E.


Right ON. Okay, admittedly the rest sounds a little dicey but this part rocks.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 11:20:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

subtee:
You said I had a "small one" yesterday, you hussy.
And after I offered you my deepest sympathy for your Valentines day massacre you said I was gullible.
I notice these things you know !


Quite wrong, sir!

Didn't call you gullible. That was me...because you were patronizing me and I noticed it.

My "lil, wee thing" comment was in no way directed toward your masterful, huge and powerful member that, I assume, makes all the girls cry.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 12:29:23 PM)

Subtee:
I most certainly am not patronising you, but I am teasing you.
I am having a bit of fun thassal.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/18/2008 12:51:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Subtee, be carefull, if you point out that Chaos thoery is Deterministic, you make some people very upset.


I didn't say it! Wikipedia said it...

uh oh





shallowdeep -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/19/2008 1:51:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGNINAL: subtee
Would someone please dumb this down for me, say to a fifth gr---third grade level?

I'm an expert on neither chaos theory, nor third grade educational practices... but, here's an attempt. While I haven't personally read it, the book that thornhappy recommended, Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick, is generally well regarded and is most likely a more entertaining and informative read than this post. You've been warned.

Chaos theory comprises the study of certain systems with complex, seemingly random behavior. However, the systems are not random. They are clearly defined by a set of equations (i.e. they are deterministic). What they do lack is an analytical solution - there is no way to find an explicit equation representing the solution. It's a bit like having a recipe with a bunch of steps, but no way of knowing what it's going to make until you try it.

When people first started carefully investigating such systems in the late 1800s, they got far enough to realize that they didn't want to try going much further. Once you realize you can't get an analytical solution (i.e. you realize you can't remember what the recipe was for) you can still use numerical analysis (i.e. follow the recipe step by step) to see what happens. You have the steps, and they aren't even that hard... in some cases a third grader could do them. But there is a problem: to follow the recipe perfectly requires an infinite number of steps. Even getting a good approximation requires so many steps that even the brightest mathematicians with the most boring social lives of the time didn't want to try. As a result, linear systems got most of the attention.

Of course computers are very good at doing a bunch of simple, repetitive calculations very quickly - and they don't have any social lives at all. So, once they became common, it didn't take too long for some progress to be made. Lorenz happened to be using an early computer to do some weather model simulations when he made an interesting observation, which we'll get to in a moment.

As has already been mentioned, a defining characteristic of chaotic systems is that they are very sensitive to initial conditions. All this means is that a very small difference in the way things are set up will have a vary large impact on what happens down the road.

Imagine dropping a twig into a river that (magically) always has exactly the same water flow patterns. If you were to drop a second twig just a fraction of an inch apart from the first, you might expect it to end up near the first one... and certainly closer to the first than if you had dropped it on the other side of the river. If the river were a linear system, this would be a good assumption. If it's chaotic,* it might still be a good assumption - but only for the first few dozen yards or so. If the river has a fork a mile downstream, predicting which branch the twig will take based only on its initial placement and the route the first one took is pretty much futile.

Returning from the river to an early 1960s lab:
Lorenz was trying to rerun a weather simulation. The numbers he entered as initial conditions for his model accidently happened to be very slightly different from the ones he used before... but they resulted in an entirely different weather pattern.

If Lorenz had stopped there, it might not have meant much. You didn't need a scientist to tell you weather was complex. Lorenz went further though. He spent quite a bit of time studying the mathematics and simplified his weather model to a set of three very simple equations that still resulted in very large sensitivity to initial conditions. What this meant was that at least part of the difficulty with long-term weather predictions was not due to the model being a poor explanation for reality, but to very small things (like a butterfly flapping its wings) having a surprisingly powerful effect on the system in the long-term.

This didn't really help long-term weather prediction all that much, as continuously monitoring every butterfly in the world unfortunately remains outside of the NOAA's budget limits. It has helped other fields where tighter control over the system was possible, though. Things that had previously seemed liked random noise in linear models, or problems that had been impossible to solve using linear models could be addressed with non-linear ones (and the help of massive computing power).

The key point is that, while chaotic systems sometimes seem random, they aren't. They are difficult to work with, but you can analyze them, both numerically (using a computer) and qualitatively (using plots usually made by a computer) to get useful information. As my differential equations text said after all the bad news, "We don't have to give up studying the solutions of the Lorenz equations. We just have to ask the right questions."

For instance, you might determine if using a much more convenient linear model under a particular region of a non-linear system is appropriate, and then use that simplified model to design something cool (Welcome to the world of engineering!). In a sense, chaos theory, despite the name, is really more about restoring order to previously unapproachable complexity.

*If you've ever dropped twigs in a river, it may come as no surprise that many natural systems are chaotic.


Moral: Run a find and replace, substituting "butterfly" for "seagull", before submitting academic papers for publication.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/19/2008 3:19:00 AM)

quote:

Imagine dropping a twig into a river that (magically) always has exactly the same water flow patterns. If you were to drop a second twig just a fraction of an inch apart from the first, you might expect it to end up near the first one...
Only someone easily satisified would not see the total lack of rigour in this quote.

First: you have by definition eliminated chaos from the water flow.
Second: no two twigs are identical
Third: the number of variables to be accounted for as the twigs hit the water is quite large. It is therefore quite unreasonable to expect to be able to predict where each twig would end up and totally unacceptable to attempt to create any scientific theory when so much is unknown

Might just as well get a Native American to perform a twig dance to get the right answers.

adding now see that the whole post goes on and admits as much so I suppose we can agree that Chaos theory is basically mumbo jumbo packaged in scientific gobbledegook which provides meaningless focus for superfluous "theorists" boom boom.= non chaotic super sonic pharts




ThinkingKitten -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/19/2008 4:17:45 AM)

It's my understanding that the "butterfly" association with CT came from the 3D plots done when measuring certain, apparently totally random events (e.g. a dripping tap - measure the size of the drop and the interval between drops), and that if you plot enough of these points, you will start to see a shape appearing that resembles butterfly wings - and that is where the "deterministic" angle comes from - that even in the those most erratic and seemingly unpredictable events, if you measure enough of them over time, there will be a common pattern - and thus predicatability, appear.

They've used it to deduce weird things such as that if your heartbeat is actually a little bit irregular, your chances of dying from sudden cardiac arrest are reduced - contrary to what one might otherwise think.




Alumbrado -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/19/2008 5:30:45 AM)

As pointed out, chaos theory, strange attractors,  random number study, fuzzy logic, nanotech et al. are part of higher mathematics, contrarian attention 'seeking' derails aside.

Chaos theory doesn't pretend to predict the future like a crystal ball, it offers a means of studying connections.


http://hypertextbook.com/chaos/





shallowdeep -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/19/2008 6:49:42 PM)

quote:

Only someone easily satisified would not see the total lack of rigour in this quote.

I agree, but (in my defense) the target audience was third graders. It's always possible to take issue with analogies - and, as a result, they are useless as actual arguments (rigorous or otherwise). However, they can be a useful as a tool for grasping a concept, which was the intent here. My off the cuff analogy seems to have failed in that purpose. Sorry.

quote:

First: you have by definition eliminated chaos from the water flow.

You kind of got the point. I didn't eliminate chaos. I eliminated random variables. There is a big difference. Even if you know exactly how something works (i.e. it is fully deterministic), it can still generate chaotic behavior.

quote:

Second: no two twigs are identical

This is one of those random variables that it was my intent to eliminate - not just from the water flow, but from the whole system. Assume all twigs are identical.

quote:

Third: the number of variables to be accounted for as the twigs hit the water is quite large.

Again, random variables I wished removed. Assume everything is identical except initial twig position.

quote:

It is therefore quite unreasonable to expect to be able to predict where each twig would end up and totally unacceptable to attempt to create any scientific theory when so much is unknown

Okay. The point was that nothing was unknown. My deficient analogy of a magical river behaves according to a set of known rules, which do not change. If you were to drop the stick in exactly the same position, it would always follow the same course and end up in the same place.

It may be a bit unintuitive, but even with no unknowns you are still right that expecting to predict where a twig goes based only on where the first twig went is futile. While the way the system works is known, its behavior is so complex that there is no obvious way to determine if a second twig placed an inch from the first will take the same downstream fork as did the first. A twig randomly placed somewhere on the opposite side of the river seemingly has the same chance. This complexity, and not any randomness in the system itself, is why it is called chaotic.

If you were to drop a few thousand twigs in different positions all over the river, you might see some patterns emerge. You might find a little patch where all the twigs dropped took the left fork. You would then have some justification for predicting which way a twig dropped in that patch might go. Computers and numerical analysis help give this sort of insight into nonlinear systems, enabling you to drop and track a metaphoric forest of twigs in the river.

quote:

I suppose we can agree that Chaos theory is basically mumbo jumbo packaged in scientific gobbledegook which provides meaningless focus for superfluous "theorists"

I think your derision stems more from a misunderstanding of what it is, than any opposition to the actual field. It might be better if it was called "Analysis of Nonlinear Systems with Complex Behaviors." But that's just not as catchy. It's not just the realm of starry-eyed theorists, either. A result of the theory is that things which are seemingly chaotic, like turbulent fluid flow, can be represented with relatively simple models, like the Navier-Stokes equations. Do you really believe computational fluid dynamics is mumbo jumbo? If so, you may want to avoid airplanes designed in the last few decades.

You seem to have the impression that chaos theory claims to be able to make magical predictions about random events - something it does not do, while simultaneously believing the field has never contributed to anything practical - which is, again, not true. If that was the information I had, I probably wouldn't think too much of it either. Hopefully this clarifies things a bit.




subtee -> RE: Edward Lorenz, Father of Chaos Theory, Dies (4/21/2008 2:03:17 PM)

That made sense to me and I appreciate that you took the time to write. 

--tee

quote:

Might just as well get a Native American to perform a twig dance to get the right answers.



Seeks, leave my ancestors out of it!




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