RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated

RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (Full Version)

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windchymes -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 2:18:17 PM)
Best thing to do is start attending "Slave-anon" meetings. You can meet once a week with other disappointed slaves, vent your frustrations about Master's unacceptable behavior, then go back home and return to enabling him to continue until next week, when you can meet to vent frustrations again.

xxblushesxx -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 3:13:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael What DesFIP said is good advice except the following. quote: It is your responsibility to say straight out "If you didn't want this, why didn't you say so?" and "I am seriously furious with you deliberately ruining my one evening out for the week. How dare you?" If you had an issue that you were trying to fix, does the above seem like how you would like to be treated? Is it thhe sort of advice a love one would give? You need to make it safe for him to be vulnerable, us big bad doms don't want to be thought of as defective. She is right that you address it clearly but why not try doing it this way... I think Des had the right idea. It's all very well and nice to think you can nip the problem in the bud before it starts, but, PA people when they're feeling pissy and that you have to pay for that, don't give you the option to talk your way out of that behaviour. (in my experience) And sometimes people have to be told that what they did was unacceptable and why it was unacceptable. This guy apparently knows what he's doing, and is at least man enough to admit it. He ought to be man enough to face the consequences when he has screwed up. The idea about calling 'red' when he tries to change the subject by physically manhandling you is a good idea as well. I can't imagine how that would feel; but I do know it wouldn't be good.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 3:55:18 PM)
In agreement with TammyJo, if/when you both decide you want a fresh start and to build a strong relationship together again, the main deal will be simply not allowing him to have those behaviors. Simply ask him "Are you avoiding the issue?" You can't be PA if the only option is "direct truth."

Real_Trouble -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 4:57:01 PM)
I would like to echo several posters: 1 - If he is truly committed to change, you need to be both assertive and supportive in working with him. Being submissive does not necessarily mean letting someone take unfair advantage of you in ways you do not want; SSC has "consensual" at the end for a reason. 2 - If he is not committed to change, you are fucked, in the bad way. 3 - If you did not notice this for several years, I do understand that these things happen, but you should start considering what you could have done to understand him better and also better scope out and assess the situation you were in next time. Mistakes do occur; learn from them. 4 - You have to be willing to walk. If you aren't, things could be very ugly. Enjoy.

hissweetbella -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 5:07:29 PM)
Sir says he made sure to be on his best behavior before and that he made the effort not to let me see that side of him. He says he feels completely comfortable with me now and believes that is why it comes out more. He was worried that if i saw his "dark side" that i would not want to be in a relationship with him.

Level -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 5:32:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Still looking for one that can help me with my overwhelming modesty. [:D]

Real_Trouble -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 5:35:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hissweetbella Sir says he made sure to be on his best behavior before and that he made the effort not to let me see that side of him. He says he feels completely comfortable with me now and believes that is why it comes out more. He was worried that if i saw his "dark side" that i would not want to be in a relationship with him. Then I suggest you be wiser to that game next time. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I personally ask some very penetrating questions of people I know on a regular basis, and I have a very well-honed bullshit detector. This was acquired through experience and through my own mistakes of a similar nature. The burden of detecting such behavior is always on you, otherwise you will always be the sucker in the room. I'm not saying that to be insensitve. That's just how things are.

sabirah -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 5:47:45 PM)
greetings, I found it really disturbing and uncalled for, to find this kind of response, she is a slave, she is suppose to "clingon". yet she is confused and seeks answers to help her find her way. not once did I hear the OP, use any bitter or harsh words towards her "lifestyle" and or her Master. quote: ORIGINAL: Dnomyar Herein lies the problem with clingons. They won't move on till they become bitter towards all Doms and the lifestyle in general.

xxblushesxx -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 7:40:19 PM)
I think 'sir' is in many ways a good guy for owning up to what he did to lead you into this hell. Otoh, why oh why would someone who calls himself a master lie about who and what he is? Then again, don't we all in a sense, do that? I'm confused. I can only imagine what you're going through.

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 8:56:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum quote: ORIGINAL: lanie38 I find it hard to believe that in two years his passive aggressive behavior never came to light??!! But that being said...if he deliberately hid part of his personality from you than, for me at least, the original agreement is null and void and the relationship is up for renegotiation... Yea that's my thinking. For whatever reason she has finally picked up its a "glaring issue" and I need to "change Him". And of course now that the honeymoon period is over. It's all his fault. I don't have advice for someone who after 2 years determines that his behaviour is "suddenly unacceptable" BadOne Hummmm..so how long is acceptable, a time frame, to be able to call certain behaviors unacceptable???..one week?, one month? one year?..then what?..the warranty runs out?.....Tempting

themischievous1 -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 9:20:53 PM)
When couples have problems, D/s related or otherwise, it's time to find a good couple's counselor who is lifestyle friendly, experienced, and reputable. Only a professional counselor is going to be able to seriously advise in unbiased fashion from both perspectives of what is going on in your relationship dynamic. You can try and navigate these potentially rough waters on your own, using your own ideas or other lay people's opinions, but none of these will be any subsitute for a professional's assistance. If your dominant is unwilling to go to counseling, I would think of that as a serious red flag. I'm also of the opinion that no time is inappropriate to discover that your partner, (dominant or submissive), has issues that you do not care to tolerate without change occurring. If someone exhibits dysfunctional behavior in the relationship that is disturbing, their sig other must get up the courage or motivation to confront them and address the problem. The unacceptable behavior should be directly confronted, communicated about at length, and dealt with. This is what happens in a healthy relationship. Problems are confronted honestly, communicated about at length and dealt with. This can occur at all stages of relationships. It is when one will not communicate, and refuses to address problems, and/or change that is unacceptable. When unacceptable behavior is simply swept under the rug or codependently, passively excused and the problem just continues, a very unhealthy, unhappy relationship dynamic will likely be the outcome.

ShadowKing -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 9:56:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael You need to make it safe for him to be vulnerable, us big bad doms don't want to be thought of as defective. She is right that you address it clearly but why not try doing it this way... It is your responsibility to say straight out "I love you and would eat almost anywhere you asked but you let me choose, is there somewhere you would prefer we go?" and "This is my one evening out for the week, it is really important to me, lets work together to make it wonderful, now what can we do together that we both enjoy. I love you!" It is important not to accuse using "You" statements. Rather than "you ruined it" say "I am sad". The first way makes someone defensive the second asks for their help or sympathy. Make it clear you want to listen but that he must ask or say what he wants with clarity. Perhaps when he is being passive (and hell, I think sometimes we want a break and ARE letting someone else choose) say "honey, I will eat anywhere, are you sure this is where you want to go?" In short, you have to provide the safe place for him to learn how to ask for what he wants. I know for me, I could ask "gee honey, I am going to fuck your ass and mouth in some random order" but had trouble saying "no I don't want to go to the store with you" or "I need a hug". I was going to say something really profound, but SM said it first! I used to be in a relationship with a Psycho Hose Beast™, and it was NEVER safe to talk with her. We both have dominant personalities, but hers makes a Gorean Torturer look like a little pussy cat. I often had many passive aggressive behaviors, just to avoid fighting 24/7. That does not justify behaving like that, it just made it really hard to deal with any issues. Now I have grown a bit, and have relationships with people who fall a little more on the human side of the scale. I don't railroad the weak ones, but (given my past experiences) I am comfortable standing up to the pushy ones. The biggest factor for me changing was becoming satisfied with who I am. To do that, I had to weed out the behaviors that made me ashamed of who I was, and had to begin doing things that I was proud of. I am still not there yet, but I can honestly say that I am getting there.

catize -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 10:04:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hissweetbella Sir says he made sure to be on his best behavior before and that he made the effort not to let me see that side of him. He says he feels completely comfortable with me now and believes that is why it comes out more. He was worried that if i saw his "dark side" that i would not want to be in a relationship with him. If he was able to control himself for two years, ask him to take a look at how he managed to do that. If he can see how he did it then, he should be able to do it now.

SailingBum -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/15/2008 10:05:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum Yea that's my thinking. For whatever reason she has finally picked up its a "glaring issue" and I need to "change Him". And of course now that the honeymoon period is over. It's all his fault. I don't have advice for someone who after 2 years determines that his behaviour is "suddenly unacceptable" BadOne Hummmm..so how long is acceptable, a time frame, to be able to call certain behaviors unacceptable???..one week?, one month? one year?..then what?..the warranty runs out?.....Tempting 2 schools of thought. Some ppl are so dense they never get it. motown song "if you dont know me by now.... You will never never never know me. BadOne

CreativeDominant -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/16/2008 7:21:05 AM)
One last thing to note...it is noted quite often in various articles about women and "bad boys" that part of the attraction to bad boys is the inherent nature of women to be attracted to behavior that they "know" they can change. The attraction is the "challenge". Whether you disagree or not with that assessment, one thing my friends and I have noted is that there is something akin to the "white knight" syndrome present in a lot of women...they discover a flaw in their partner (it may have been there all along but, as the "Bum" put it, not noticed until the end of the honeymoon period OR it may be a new problem) and they just know they can change it. I have said it before...you can let him know that you are aware of it, that when he behaves in that manner you feel a certain way, and you can look at options...together...for changing said behavior. But no one has any business acting as their partner's therapist. And perhaps it is just me but...for all the help that a submissive can be to their partner (and we have all seen examples of that posted on these boards by the submissives and their dominants), that help is directed, at least initially, by the dominant or O.K.d by them...there is something a bit squicky about the submissive acting as the therapist, the white knight to the dominant-as-damsel-in-distress.

catize -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/16/2008 8:39:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant One last thing to note...it is noted quite often in various articles about women and "bad boys" that part of the attraction to bad boys is the inherent nature of women to be attracted to behavior that they "know" they can change. The attraction is the "challenge". Whether you disagree or not with that assessment, one thing my friends and I have noted is that there is something akin to the "white knight" syndrome present in a lot of women...they discover a flaw in their partner (it may have been there all along but, as the "Bum" put it, not noticed until the end of the honeymoon period OR it may be a new problem) and they just know they can change it. I have said it before...you can let him know that you are aware of it, that when he behaves in that manner you feel a certain way, and you can look at options...together...for changing said behavior. But no one has any business acting as their partner's therapist. And perhaps it is just me but...for all the help that a submissive can be to their partner (and we have all seen examples of that posted on these boards by the submissives and their dominants), that help is directed, at least initially, by the dominant or O.K.d by them...there is something a bit squicky about the submissive acting as the therapist, the white knight to the dominant-as-damsel-in-distress. I agree that people who have a physical and or emotional connection should not try to be a therapist to their partner. But I don’t agree that when a submissive calls bullshit on bad behavior (in dulcet tones, of course) he or she is acting as a counselor. To point out inappropriate behaviors and how that affects you and the relationship is being assertive. If it isn’t communicated in a forthright manner, it will be acted upon passively (the relationship ends.) And I also see what you call the white knight syndrome in women a little differently.. Sometimes we are more accepting of foibles in the beginning of a relationship. We don’t have an active plan to change the person, as such, rather a passive hope the behaviors will change on their own over time. Of course that doesn’t happen, and so our view changes and we are less tolerant. Nor do I believe that only women do this. Your last sentence really surprised me. I believe that as faulty humans, dominants can certainly be in distress. If the submissive is capable of kicking some ass to get the problem corrected are you saying you prefer he/she remain passive until the dominant asks for help?

CreativeDominant -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/17/2008 2:42:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant One last thing to note...it is noted quite often in various articles about women and "bad boys" that part of the attraction to bad boys is the inherent nature of women to be attracted to behavior that they "know" they can change. The attraction is the "challenge". Whether you disagree or not with that assessment, one thing my friends and I have noted is that there is something akin to the "white knight" syndrome present in a lot of women...they discover a flaw in their partner (it may have been there all along but, as the "Bum" put it, not noticed until the end of the honeymoon period OR it may be a new problem) and they just know they can change it. I have said it before...you can let him know that you are aware of it, that when he behaves in that manner you feel a certain way, and you can look at options...together...for changing said behavior. But no one has any business acting as their partner's therapist. And perhaps it is just me but...for all the help that a submissive can be to their partner (and we have all seen examples of that posted on these boards by the submissives and their dominants), that help is directed, at least initially, by the dominant or O.K.d by them...there is something a bit squicky about the submissive acting as the therapist, the white knight to the dominant-as-damsel-in-distress. I agree that people who have a physical and or emotional connection should not try to be a therapist to their partner. But I don’t agree that when a submissive calls bullshit on bad behavior (in dulcet tones, of course) he or she is acting as a counselor. Nor do I...and in my earlier post, I try to take pains to point out that calling bad behavior on a dominant should be done. There is nothing in calling someone on bad behavior that is therapeutic in nature other than perhaps the "wake-up" call to some on their behavior. If I did not make that clear, I hope this does so. quote: To point out inappropriate behaviors and how that affects you and the relationship is being assertive. If it isn’t communicated in a forthright manner, it will be acted upon passively (the relationship ends.) Agreed. quote: And I also see what you call the white knight syndrome in women a little differently.. Sometimes we are more accepting of foibles in the beginning of a relationship. We don’t have an active plan to change the person, as such, rather a passive hope the behaviors will change on their own over time. Of course that doesn’t happen, and so our view changes and we are less tolerant. Nor do I believe that only women do this. Nor did I say only women do this...what I noted is that it does seem to be present more so in women than in men. While many men want to be with the bad girl, there are a lot fewer men that will try to change her behavior versus just walking away from her when they are done with her. That may make these men less than the female counterpart who tries to change the bad boy but that was not the intention of this discussion. quote: Your last sentence really surprised me. I believe that as faulty humans, dominants can certainly be in distress. If the submissive is capable of kicking some ass to get the problem corrected are you saying you prefer he/she remain passive until the dominant asks for help? No. What I am saying is that the submissive should call the dominant on his behavior and be supportive of his seeking help to correct his problem. But to act as his therapist? to take on the dominant role of "are you doing the exercises your therapist prescribed for you?" "are you really trying to correct this/ you are not working hard enough at this" in the attempt to push him along? No...I do not agree with that. And part of that comes down to the idea of the dominant needing to be in control of his life...including doing what he can to correct behaviors he has chosen to correct. Help? Always. The submissive "kicking his ass" to get him to work on it? No.

catize -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/17/2008 4:56:59 PM)
quote: If I did not make that clear, I hope this does so. You did make it clear; I missed it, my bad! quote: Help? Always. The submissive "kicking his ass" to get him to work on it? No. “Kicking ass” was too strong a phrase and I didn’t mean to imply that I advocate nagging. I think that basically we are in agreement that each individual needs to do their own work to make the relationship compatible. Pushing only leads to resentment for one and fatigue for the other.

UncleNasty -> RE: honor, integrity, and being manipulated (4/21/2008 11:10:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 i have no opinion on this issue one way or another.....However, i will tell You that one of the best formulas for communicating i learned goes like this: i feel _________(use feeling word) When you ____________ (behavior) Because ____________ (why do you feel that way) Next time please __________ (request for change). I'll give you a hint, when you are beginning to use this if you catch yourself saying things like "i feel like" or "i feel that" or even "i feel you" those are thoughts....not feelings.. good luck, Kali edited to add One of the best things about this line of communication is, in my experience, it eliminate the room for manipulation. It's straightforward and to the point. It also takes responsibility for your feelings...might be worth a try. Spot on. Very simple. Very effective. And as I walk the earth longer I find the percentage of people that have the self awareness or courage to deal with their feelings, and the feelings of others, in such an unaromored way is pretty small. Would you happen to be single Kalista? Uncle Nasty

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