Making the world a billion times better (Full Version)

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Level -> Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:03:44 AM)

quote:

M IT was so advanced in 1965 (the year I entered as a freshman) that it actually had a computer. Housed in its own building, it cost $11 million (in today's dollars) and was shared by all students and faculty. Four decades later, the computer in your cellphone is a million times smaller, a million times less expensive and a thousand times more powerful. That's a billion-fold increase in the amount of computation you can buy per dollar.


Yet as powerful as information technology is today, we will make another billion-fold increase in capability (for the same cost) over the next 25 years. That's because information technology builds on itself -- we are continually using the latest tools to create the next so they grow in capability at an exponential rate. This doesn't just mean snazzier cellphones. It means that change will rock every aspect of our world. The exponential growth in computing speed will unlock a solution to global warming, unmask the secret to longer life and solve myriad other worldly conundrums.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/11/AR2008041103326.html




Raechard -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:15:31 AM)

Isn't there some mathematical rule that sets a limit on future technical advancement in terms of miniaturisation and we are near reaching it already? 




DomKen -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:16:48 AM)

The problem is, as anyone who pays attention to PC hardware has likely noticed, we've reached the limits of what can be done with existing technology. That is we have just about hit the maximum number of transistors per unit area of semiconductor and not conincendently we've reached the limits of processor speed. Without a fundamental theoretical breakthrough we're stuck doing small stuff like multiple processors which while they do improve performance do not result in the sort of yeast growth curves of processing power increase we've seen over the last 40 years or so.

I'm actually kind of surprised Kurzweil isn't aware of this.




popeye1250 -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:21:06 AM)

Interesting, poverty has been cut in half in Asia but it's increasing in the U.S.




Raechard -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:22:26 AM)

I think this is the difference between the corporate standpoints i.e. what you need to say to promote your business sector to investors and the reality you know yourself to be fact.




kittinSol -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:23:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Interesting, poverty has been cut in half in Asia but it's increasing in the U.S.


We'll try and get a collective together to get you a new set of records [:D] .




faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 11:25:44 AM)

i miss my awesome pii300 scsi system.  sigh.




pahunkboy -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 12:03:35 PM)

but;

people are resistent to shelling out cash for electronic junk which is obsolete 6 mos to 2 years later.

look for more "service fees"  as then the telecoms have us forever....




Termyn8or -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 1:24:30 PM)

Talking technology, well I will have to keep it short because I have to go take a wood lathe over my sister's house. High tech huh ?

So if it is a billion times "better", OK we can use that term, it will not get a billion times better again with current technology.

Modern IC technology has been indensified by better methods. If the template for just one of the many layers of doped silicon in the processor of your PC was blown up so you could just barely see the details with a magnifying glass, it would be as big as a city block.

I have a print for a bigscreen TV, not even an HDTV and it is over a thousand pages. Most are less, but the pages are bigger and you have to zoom in just to see the interconnect so you know where to find what you need to check next to fix it.

And, I have this book that depicts the entire history of computers up to a certain date. Early computers were mechanical, and the first billionfold betterment came with the advent of the transistor, invented in 1957. Before then there were computers that used tubes (valves for the Brits) and they were awesome. Whole rooms just for one computer, but left the mechanical ones in the dust.

But there is another point right now that I want to make. The mechanical computers did the job, but even tubes ran the pants off of them. The transistor made it more compactable and to run cooler. Then the miniturization began. Once they put more than one transistor in a case it was bound to happen.

So IMO we have already had two billion fold increases. I just don't count on the next one happening.

As a devout follower and understudy of technology throughout my life, I am qualified to speak here. For the next billionfold increase certain things have to happen.

Confining the discussion to computers, to get an idea where we are going you have to know where we are at now.

One second please.




erebus -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 1:30:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is, as anyone who pays attention to PC hardware has likely noticed, we've reached the limits of what can be done with existing technology. That is we have just about hit the maximum number of transistors per unit area of semiconductor and not conincendently we've reached the limits of processor speed. Without a fundamental theoretical breakthrough we're stuck doing small stuff like multiple processors which while they do improve performance do not result in the sort of yeast growth curves of processing power increase we've seen over the last 40 years or so.

I'm actually kind of surprised Kurzweil isn't aware of this.



Haven't you heard of the software progress using multiple processors in one system?  Or the coming quantum computer?  Or the biological computer?

Do you think the military has just thrown their hands up and walked away when the limits of Moore's law are encountered?  Hardly. 

On the other hand, super processing isn't going to solve anything.

Look at people who are very bright and learn quickly.  So what?  You can learn stupid stuff, erroneous stuff, quickly.

Personally, Kurzweil does all this to sell books.  I hope he doesn't really believe much is going to happen to improve humanity or the planet anytime soon.




farglebargle -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 1:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is, as anyone who pays attention to PC hardware has likely noticed, we've reached the limits of what can be done with existing technology. That is we have just about hit the maximum number of transistors per unit area of semiconductor and not conincendently we've reached the limits of processor speed. Without a fundamental theoretical breakthrough we're stuck doing small stuff like multiple processors which while they do improve performance do not result in the sort of yeast growth curves of processing power increase we've seen over the last 40 years or so.

I'm actually kind of surprised Kurzweil isn't aware of this.



PC's are toys. The "dumb terminals" of today.

They are used to open terminal sessions on real computers which do the real work - something like an IBM Z series...





thornhappy -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 1:37:53 PM)

Hi folks--

Check out http://www.EETimes.com for some of the latest news on semiconductor processing, and the latest efforts to improve the performance of multi-core computers.

thornhappy




Termyn8or -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 2:02:01 PM)

I am supposed to be moving a lathe, but so what.

Anyway, here is where we are at. Electronics as we know it has run it's course when it comes to speed. To explain, go back to the example of the superiority of electronic computers vs mechanical ones. Now consider this, the computers of today are actually mechanical. You won't hear this anywhere else. This is my slant on it and yes I will explain it.

In an electronic computer we move electrons around, rather than to move the whole molecule. Electrical current is not a magical force, it is the exchange of electrons between atoms in a conductor.

And it takes time for those electrons to move. We are now at a point that doing it is actually slowing us down. That is why they put cache RAM right into the processor chips today.

There are more advanced technologies that look promising. Quite a few years ago they started working on it optically. They got a few things to work but it doesn't look like it is going to pan out anytime soon. Another one, from a newletter from I forget, it came in an email. This was from the industry, an announcement, it wasn't just some guy saying it.

They now have invented a transistor that is only one molecule.

In your PC there is a processor, there are billions of transistors in it. Chip manufacturers are almost in a contest to see who can miniturize further and still have a viable product.

You would be surprized at how that business goes. Every chip is made with all the bells and whistles. Nice P3s with all the cache and everything, enhanced instruction set, everything they got.

Then they produce them. The testing procedure, if it works, proves the PU of it is working, but some of the features are failing. Well you are the chip manufacturer so you can change the firmware so to speak and just shut off whatever doesn't work right. That is where Celerons came from.

You think they made a die and artwork set that would make them less money ? Hell no, that cheap stuff is what failed to work as the good shit. By leaving these options open, they save stock that would be in the dumpster, and are able to sell it.

Same thing goes on with harddrives. They build them and then try to low level format them to the desired capacity. When some of them fail, the are LL formatted to a lower capacity, and so on and so on. 

It doesn't work any other way. If you go looking for a HD, you will see any given company has a certain line of HDs and they come in say 80GB, 120GB and 200GB. Well the manufacturing techniques used to make those HDs were all the same.Why the hell would they make an 80 gig when they can make a 200 gig ?

Does that sound logical to you ?

T




bipolarber -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 5:27:09 PM)

In 1883, Jules Verne wrote a book about what he thought Paris would be like in the year 2000. The best he could come up with was a vast sprawl of building that reached an unprecedented 50 stories tall, and air travel was conducted by huge dirigables. It became possible, in his book, for every block to have a cold storage area of it's own, and the whole world was powered by electricity generated by the steam created by the focused light of the sun.

Obviously, he was a little off the mark.

Verne was no idiot. The man could work out details in his stories to such a degree that it still amazes people today about how close he came to things like spaceflight, atomic powered subs, and heavier than air travel.

The point is, the future will be dominated by technological advances that we can't really guess at today. The future, if we actually have one, will be far more wonderous than anyone can predict. Any books you may read on the subject will probably fall woefully short of the reality.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 6:12:15 PM)


Quantum computing.




Alumbrado -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 8:32:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is, as anyone who pays attention to PC hardware has likely noticed, we've reached the limits of what can be done with existing technology. That is we have just about hit the maximum number of transistors per unit area of semiconductor and not conincendently we've reached the limits of processor speed. Without a fundamental theoretical breakthrough we're stuck doing small stuff like multiple processors which while they do improve performance do not result in the sort of yeast growth curves of processing power increase we've seen over the last 40 years or so.

I'm actually kind of surprised Kurzweil isn't aware of this.



http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

[8|]




Sanity -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 8:36:54 PM)

Welcome back, Alumbrado. Where have you been?




Alumbrado -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 8:40:18 PM)

On tour. Be going back out for the summer festival circuit next week.




DomKen -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 9:45:22 PM)

People can talk about multi core systems and quantum or biological computing but multi core is simply putting more chips in nthe same box with a diminishing return on improved performance and quantum and biological still require fundamental theoretical breakthroughs which may or may not happen.

Consider my trusty home box, it's a pIV 2.4 GHZ with 1 gig of RAM (as originally purchased) which I bought late in 2002. While not quite state of the art anymore, primarily in things to do with the motherboard (slow bus), this is the first 5+ year span in my lifetime where a computer that existed at the start of the period was not hopelessly obsolete at the end of it. There's nothing wrong with that but even if Moores law hasn't quite reached its ultimate limit chip, manufacture is pushing the very limit of the lithography process used to make them and until some new way to put tranistors onto a substrate comes along we're reaching the end of the rapid advance of computing power.




shallowdeep -> RE: Making the world a billion times better (4/13/2008 10:14:49 PM)

It's nice to see someone optimistic about the near(ish) future. I'm in agreement that technology can solve many of the problems facing us, and I'm optimistic that it will. With that said (and leaving the subjective billion times "better" title aside), some of Kurzweil's comments left me scratching my head.

Take his comments on nanotechnology, apparently in relation to photovoltaics:

quote:

Nanotechnology itself is an information technology and therefore subject to what I call the "law of accelerating returns," a continual doubling of capability about every year.

His extrapolation of Moore's Law to PV doesn't make sense. The closest analogy to processor performance in PV is efficiency. Unlike computational power, efficiency has a very clearly defined upper limit: 100%. Considering that we're already around 40% on the cutting edge, there isn't much room for exponential growth in efficiency. Comparing PV price/efficiency to information technology price/performance similarly doesn't make sense. What's often ignored about integrated circuits is that while the transistor density has increased exponentially, so has the cost of the plants that fabricate them. Since process shrinks allow for more transistors per wafer, price/performance has steadily decreased, but the same argument doesn't hold true for PV where the maximum power you can generate is directly proportional to the surface area of the material.

If he's simply referring to manufacturing capacity growing exponentially, that's possible... although without continuous exponential population growth it's not necessary (or likely) in the long term. Comparison with more traditional manufacturing fields would give a better idea of the potential cost reductions from scale than a flawed association with information technology.

Maybe he only meant the utility of nanotechnology in a general sense will increase exponentially, which is more vague and, therefore, defensible. =) But the context is misleading, as few specific applications (and not PV) are going to be following an exponential curve in a measurable attribute.

And then there's this:
quote:

We are now adding three months every year to human life expectancy, but given the exponential growth of our ability to reprogram biology, this will soon go into high gear. According to my models, 15 years from now we'll be adding more than a year each year to our remaining life expectancy.

While I believe biology is going to be one of the more interesting fields in the next few decades, I can't help but see his model as more a product of his desire for immortality than of facts.

A bit on the computer issue:

His assertion that computers will continue their exponential increase in performance over the next 25 years is possible, but not with the relatively straightforward process shrinks that have driven Moore's Law in the past, which he acknowledges in the article linked by Alumbrado. He has faith in innovations beyond planar MOSFET technology, and uses historical precedent to support that. In the long term I wouldn't bet against him on this, but in the short term there might be a noticeable hiccup.

We haven't yet reached the limits of venerable MOSFET technology, but we're getting there. Commercial manufacturing of processors recently reached the 45 nm node. The next nodes, the 32 and 22 nm ones, are likely to follow with relative ease, and 16 nm is also likely. Much beyond that, things start to get dicey. That means the current rate of progress is likely sustainable for another 8 years, maybe longer, before any really novel approaches or breakthroughs are needed.

This article has an approachable explanation of some of the physical limits facing the technology. A big issue is that, beyond the 16 nm node, quantum tunneling through the gate when the transistor is off starts to reach the point where leakage current becomes indistinguishable from a logic 1 at reasonable voltages. The International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors has a more technical look at the challenges facing the industry.




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