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The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:17:56 PM   
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Here's a little straight talk: Whether you pull the lever (or fill in the oval or touch the screen) for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama or even John McCain in November, you're probably still going to end up in 2009 with a push for Big Government of the sort not seen in a generation. More taxes. More regulation. More spending. "It's going to be like watching That '70s Show," says Daniel Clifton, political analyst at Strategas Research Partners, which provides research to institutional investors.

Certainly there are some gaping policy differences between the White House contenders that will determine just how big Big Government gets. Both Clinton and Obama want to make national health plans available to all—partially paid for by rolling back the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts for wealthier Americans. McCain prefers a more market-driven approach and wants to keep all the tax cuts on income and investments.

But all three candidates are in favor of a "cap and trade" regulatory system to reduce carbon emissions suspected of causing global warming and to nudge the economy toward energy independence. It's an approach that could serve as a de facto $100 billion-a-year tax, since companies having trouble meeting government limits may be forced to bid for pricey carbon permits. And all three candidates will have to confront a Social Security system whose cash flow turns negative in 2017. Almost any politically feasible compromise would require higher payroll taxes—an option McCain says he's steadfastly against—as part of the mix. And it would be tough for any politician to ignore America's rickety infrastructure, which may require a nearly $2 trillion overhaul. "We're talking about government playing a different role than it has over the past decade or two," says analyst Sherle Schwenninger of the New America Foundation, a centrist think tank.


http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2008/04/11/the-return-of-big-government.html?PageNr=1

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:20:27 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		About time too. What's the point of government, if it doesn't intervene when things go haywire?

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:26:22 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Status: offline 		Someone has to pay for the two wars. That's the one possible genius of Bush's administration - making someone else pay for it.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:28:08 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"Return?"
When did it ever leave?

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:46:16 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

About time too. What's the point of government, if it doesn't intervene when things go haywire?


hrmmmmm, wow you just blew my mind unless your joking, which is quite possible, but you didn't add a thingy on the end, so guessing you're serious. .

Isn't the government responsible for most of what is haywire? Maybe we live in different countries or something, we are speaking of the U.S right? The country that intervened in Iraq, the country that has a Federal Reserve printing money left and right to intervene in saving the banks from going bankrupt by there own doing. The government of no bid contracts, and corporate welfare. I'm sure you could add to the list for me, I have seen your posts.

LOL, that's the type of intervening you get when you allow a government to intervene all the time.

Good lord, seriously, I can't understand why someone would trust a government that will lie, and steal, and kill, with finding solutions.

Trully, I'm not even trying to be snarky, but to me it's like a woman(us citizen) having an abusive drunk husband(government), and then after taking a profound beating from him, (not in a good way, broken bones and all that), turning to the husband and asking him for marital advice in an earnest manner.


What's up with that? Seriously, why do you trust the government to do so much right, when virtually everything in the modern era would indicate the government is working against you, not for you.

In theory we could have a good government, that could be trusted, but we don't, and haven't for a very long time.


This really is why I'm against socialism in the U.S. it's not that the theory couldn't work, but rather, we are led by some of the most morally defunct people on the planet. The theory doesn't matter, if those in charge are criminals.

To clarify, I can't see ever being pro anything federal government, that's what I was refering to above with government. I'd find a much more appealing approach would be to stop taxing so much and giving so much power to the Federal Level, and let the local level tax, and fix there own back yard


Anyway, point is federal involvement IMO, given past history should be reduced to the most minimal level possible, nothing will be solved giving hillary, barack, or McCain, the lead,. LOL. Oh, my I'm going to have nightmares.



< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 4/12/2008 3:51:00 PM >

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:47:56 PM   
Shawn1066


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Status: offline 		You know the saying...  Government isn't the solution to our problems...Government is the problem.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 3:54:57 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

About time too. What's the point of government, if it doesn't intervene when things go haywire?


hrmmmmm, wow you just blew my mind unless your joking, which is quite possible, but you didn't add a thingy on the end, so guessing you're serious. .



Someone had to take the unpopular side and as always, the task fell on to me.

But I do come from a different perspective, where government isn't as hated and regarded with such suspicion as it is here. I'm starting to believe that the US government has screwed its citizens over like no other. And I'm left wondering: how did it happen, and why?

Oh, before I forget:  .



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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:12:38 PM   
lronitulstahp


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Status: offline 		    i think the thing that scares most people is the payroll tax increase.   The problem being it's not always sensible...Though it SHOULD be based on income...it isn't.  Those with the largest paychecks should pay more...which in the end should be reflective on their income taxes.  Those with the least, should pay less...but percentages being what they are as set by the gov't, the poor and middle-classes feel the burden of taxes...
  As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:18:49 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

   As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....



Ideally, that's what the government should be about. It's interesting that the countries with the highest standards of living in the world have very active governments, and high taxation, things that would be considered anathema in the States.


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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:22:40 PM   
lronitulstahp


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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:37:33 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

   i think the thing that scares most people is the payroll tax increase.   The problem being it's not always sensible...Though it SHOULD be based on income...it isn't.  Those with the largest paychecks should pay more...which in the end should be reflective on their income taxes.  Those with the least, should pay less...but percentages being what they are as set by the gov't, the poor and middle-classes feel the burden of taxes...
As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....


Economics are a conundrum for me  Part of me is strongly attracted to an active, strong government. Universal health-care, for instance. But part of me tends to think that the government will fuck more up than not, and how do  we pay for it all?

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:40:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

  As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....



Ideally, that's what the government should be about. It's interesting that the countries with the highest standards of living in the world have very active governments, and high taxation, things that would be considered anathema in the States.



People sometimes point to New Zealand and Hong Kong as examples of small-government/high standard of living; what do you all think of them?

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:51:05 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		New Zealand and Hong Kong are tiny countries... I think their size allows for more minimal government intervention.

One of the most organised country I ever lived in was Switzerland: a massively capitalist economy (UBS? Credit Suisse? Nazi gold? Roche? Etc), decentralised government, but a strong federal hold on everything. It works, but it's a bit fascistic. And they drink a lot, and ski like maniacs. And they eat fondue.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 4:59:32 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

  As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....



Ideally, that's what the government should be about. It's interesting that the countries with the highest standards of living in the world have very active governments, and high taxation, things that would be considered anathema in the States.



Kittin, we could do those things too if we stopped giving so much money to foreign countries, the "U.N.", foreign aid, aids in Africa, nation building, but then people like you would be bitching.
I just couldn't care less about aids in Africa, we should have a national healthcare program in the U.S. instead.
We're not the social services agency for third and fourth world countries.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:06:03 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

  i think the thing that scares most people is the payroll tax increase.   The problem being it's not always sensible...Though it SHOULD be based on income...it isn't.  Those with the largest paychecks should pay more...which in the end should be reflective on their income taxes.  Those with the least, should pay less...but percentages being what they are as set by the gov't, the poor and middle-classes feel the burden of taxes...
As far as "Big Government": it's a term designed to make people fear the government; used to make the average Joe who doesn't read The Economist, or Walll Street Journal because he's too busy working two jobs to feed his family, vote in a direction and agree with an opinion that may not necessarily help him to make ends meet in the long run.  Big Government, in reality is making the elected leaders somewhat accountable for the people who gave them power in the forst place, and not allowing these people to fall by the wayside.  Active Government, Socially Conscious Government, Responsible Government...a rose by any other name....


Economics are a conundrum for me  Part of me is strongly attracted to an active, strong government. Universal health-care, for instance. But part of me tends to think that the government will fuck more up than not, and how do  we pay for it all?
people are scared of the answer...Taxes.  Funny that people don't seem to realize the tax money spent in Iraq would cover alot of stuff we need over here...like i dunno...Social Security could've been fixed, or healthcare, or education, so that future generations, unlike alot of the posters on this site, wouldn't spell phonetically.  (sorry but THAT one depresses the f**k out of me)  Taxes pay for the stuff we need.  It seems though that those who "have" don't want to be taxed to help the "have nots".  Don't get me wrong, i hate to see people using food stamps in line before me at Publix, dripping in gold jewelry and loading their groceries in a new Escalade with $5000 rims, while i budget and plan and save and drive a "green" car, or that i pay taxes so that section 8 recipients have better houses than i do.  But i keep in mind for everyone that takes advantage of the system, there are kids who really need the system to be in place, just in order to eke out an existence. 

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:06:35 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Yes Poppy, I know you want the USA to live in autarcy as if it were completely alone in the world. Truth is, it can't, because it depends on the rest of the globe.

Do you know the term "United Nations" was suggested by Roosevelt? Do you realise the USA has a MASSIVE debt, arrears to the UN, that it refuses to pay? I think it's in the region of 1.5 billion bucks. Quite a lot of dough, isn't it?

The USA are using the United Nations but refusing to pay for the privilege. Therefore your complaint rings hollow to me.  

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:07:54 PM   
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Status: offline 		Do you feel the "fascistic" parts are worth the good? Is it a fair trade off?
 
And I see your point about NZ and HK.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:09:32 PM   
Gemini1766


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Status: offline 		What do you mean "return of big government"? It has not stopped growing in my life time. I'm just waiting for the various agencies to be come "ministries" like Orwell wrote about in 1984.
Mini Love for example...


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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:12:53 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Economics are a conundrum for me  Part of me is strongly attracted to an active, strong government. Universal health-care, for instance. But part of me tends to think that the government will fuck more up than not, and how do  we pay for it all?

We already pay for it. treatment for the unisured is factored into the costs we are charged for medical service at private facilities and comes out of taxes at public facilities.

There are a multitude of studies showing that universal access to primary care wold greatly decrease the number of ER visits. An ER visit is much much more expensive than a office visit with a primary care physician.

So it isn't unreasonable that a single payer system would actually result in lower costs across the board. Even more savings could be achieved if the single payer was able to negotiate prices unlike Medicare D where medicare's administrators are forbidden from negotiating lower prices from the pharma companies.

Popeye stop spouting BS about foreign aid. Federal foreign aid is an insigificant part of the entire federal budget.

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RE: The Return of Big Government? - 4/12/2008 5:13:19 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes Poppy, I know you want the USA to live in autarcy as if it were completely alone in the world. Truth is, it can't, because it depends on the rest of the globe.

Do you know the term "United Nations" was suggested by Roosevelt? Do you realise the USA has a MASSIVE debt, arrears to the UN, that it refuses to pay? I think it's in the region of 1.5 billion bucks. Quite a lot of dough, isn't it?

The USA are using the United Nations but refusing to pay for the privilege. Therefore your complaint rings hollow to me.  


Well then they should throw us out then, shouldn't they?
Hey, you don't pay your dues you're out, right?

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